Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

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dmears
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 40417Post dmears
Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:05 pm

To thread jack for a second, could, Bernhard = Bemo. Regards David(roseman)

ldavis
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:42 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 40418Post ldavis
Sun Dec 25, 2011 8:13 pm

Ammonium nitrate might do a perfectly respectable job, but it's almost impossible to find it in the U.S. ever since Tim McVey blew up the Murrah building in OK. It takes a license, and FBI clearance(?), to purchase it for use on farms. So in our area the farmers are making do with anhydrous ammonia, which is only useful for synthesis of metamphetamine, or with urea. I am running tests with different proportions of calcium nitrate and ammonium nitrate. If you look in wikipedia you'll see that fertilizer grade calcium nitrate has some ammonium as a byproduct of its synthesis. By next winter we will know if the ammonium ion is toxic or beneficial. I suspect that if it were generally useful, Hoagland and Arnon would have used it when they developed their soluble fertilizer solution. For some specialty crops the ammonium is better than nitrate, but not generally. I really don't know about roses, but I will.
Larry Davis
Manhattan, KS

Bernhard
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:27 pm
Location: lower saxony, Germany

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 40422Post Bernhard
Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:19 am

david mears wrote:
To thread jack for a second, could, Bernhard = Bemo. Regards David(roseman)
Shorts answer from my android: yes

its hard To meet the keys .......

Bernhard

jriekstins
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:54 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 40586Post jriekstins
Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:10 pm

I am posting this a couple days before I get the complete picture, but this is exciting and may interest people who do not do an adequate job of cleaning the "pulp" off of their resulting seeds, both accidentally or otherwise. As most of you are aware, the fruit pulp seems to have two real problems. One it seems to inhibit germination, and two it seems to encourage fungal growth that may or may not be of any hindrance to germination. I have three batches of seeds, roughly divided according to time of processing, which is also related to time of harvesting. The first batch is spotless, clean, and thoroughly devoid of any seed pulp. The second batch, done during the time my right hand was in a cast (several broken/dislocated bones/,joints) has quite a few seeds that did not get so well cleaned (the fact that I had out of town guests for two weeks the week after the cast was removed did not help either). The gooey fungus that grows on the seed pulp has been pointing out every seed that was poorly processed, with some hip batches much more poorly cleaned than the others. It has been my experience in prior yrs. that most times I did not get any, or as the season progressed, got very poor % of germination in these batches. What I am noticing (the second batch is starting to germinate like popcorn) is that the less well cleaned seeds are germinating as well as the very well cleaned seeds. After the Jan 12th transplanting I will have a better idea if this trend is going to continue. The first complete batch had just over 1200 seeds in it, and the second has about 1100 seeds in it, each consisting of smaller batches of differing varieties in their own baggies. The third batch has about 1500 seeds in it and I haven't even started peeking into it-just the thought rather overwhelms me. Seed set was pretty good this yr.
]Jackie, SoCal., zone 9b,coastal foothills

ldavis
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:42 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 40589Post ldavis
Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:58 pm

Were these three batches all treated with calcium nitrate, or is that not part of the observations?

I've been working up my data and must say that it's not simple. Very definitely there are differences in response between CV and harvest date/storage before planting. Some act like keeping cold in hips counts as stratification time, for others just the opposite. For some the 10 mM calcium nitrate is best, for others 10 mM potassium nitrate (half the nitrate level) is best for total germination. For sure calcium nitrate speeds things up, by 23-200+ days compared to water.
Larry Davis
Manhattan, KS

davidzlesak
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:01 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 40591Post davidzlesak
Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:04 pm

Hi Larry!!

I treated some seeds with and without 6mM calcium nitrate dividing the lots in half. They are in vermiculite in the cooler now for a few weeks. I don't see a difference between them yet. Do you recommend I leave them in the cooler the typical duration for stratification, or should I pull them out early?

Thank you!!! This is exciting.
David Zlesak
St. Paul, Minnesota USDA Cold Hardiness zone 4

jriekstins
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:54 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 40593Post jriekstins
Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:58 pm

Larry,

Unfortunately I don't set things up as experiments. More like a recipe-if it doesn't turn out, I delete that one from my files. But, I have noticed in prior yrs what some seeds look like with some pulp attached-and it may be very little pulp. And about two yrs ago I took definite notice of what some baggies of seed had in common that had not germinated at all. When I call this a fungus-like growth, it maybe did not have any fungus at all-it was more like rotten pulp, in very small amounts, that had spread over the storage medium and looked like apricot jam, but darker, but the seeds were not rotted. Most of those seeds, or closely related crosses had either germinated in the yr before or after-I don't think it was related to the type of seed, but rather to how well they were processed. I do notice that with the calcium nitrate, not all of the seeds from varying batches are germinating at the same time, in the same amounts, or on the same time table. There is about the same amount of variation from batch to batch as there has been in prior yrs, but the time table has been speeded up (big time) and I believe that the germination %'s are better, and I have very few baggies that have no germination (but this could change in the next two large batches). The general survival rate (in the fourth week of germination) so far looks similar-about 2 seedlings per flat are dying, or just not growing for various reasons. In prior yrs I have not tracked survival much beyond the first two months because the reasons are too varied, or are part of culling. Hindsight being what it is, it would have been interesting to have divided up each batch-but that adds a whole lot more to the processing and paperwork than I would usually commit to.
]Jackie, SoCal., zone 9b,coastal foothills

ldavis
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:42 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 40594Post ldavis
Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:48 pm

Jackie, I gather that everything this year has gotten calcium nitrate. It would be interesting if it promoted breakdown of somehting in the pulp. I observed last year that with some CVs the achenes turned black in presence of nitrate suggesting some reaction going on. My expectation of the cause of increased germination is that when nitrate gets inside, it reacts with nitrate reductase to produce NO which is a signal molecule. It is not just an osmotic effect, or magnesium sulfate, which is taken up by plant cells, would do the same thing. But it doesn't. I don't have a good source of continuous low level of NO to test this. There are things which are purported to release NO, but not over weeks. And the most commonly used one releases cyanide which is also a signal in plants. (Plants produce and break down cyanide all the time as they make ethylene.) So we really don't know how this works.

David, I have no idea how your dried seeds will react. I only know that dried R glutinosa from Tom Silver gave 50 % germination with 10 mM calcium nitrate or potassium nitrate and 4 % with water. That's in 11 months at 4 C. It was dry about 2 mo, took 6 mo with the calcium nitrate and 7 + with potassium nitrate to get half max germination. I always keep my seeds at constant temp until they pop, then transplant them. I would wait until about 10 % sprout before moving to warm temp if I were doing it as a cool stratification, followed by warm germination. Good luck
Larry Davis
Manhattan, KS

jriekstins
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:54 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 40595Post jriekstins
Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:57 pm

Yes, they all got approx 10mM of calcium nitrate-maybe some got a little less, but none got more. I used the level teaspoon, with 1 gal water, not 1 1/2 teaspoon per gal water. And some of this new batch of seeds does have small amounts of pulp in them. How well they germinate is what interests me. Will see and report back then.
]Jackie, SoCal., zone 9b,coastal foothills

jbergeson
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:54 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 40713Post jbergeson
Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:20 pm

I was just thinking about Prairie Peace, which I've read is a rose that sets plenty of hips but has trouble germinating. Someone has had success with embryo rescue of PP, so we know the seeds are viable.

Likewise, yellow roses that wait until the second year to germinate.

Larry, are you doing any research on whether calcium nitrate might help such seeds to germinate?

If anyone happens to have a stash of Prairie Peace hips, I'd love to run a trial if it's not too late to stratify.
Joe Bergeson
Zone 3, NW Minnesota

ldavis
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:42 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 40714Post ldavis
Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:54 pm

Basically, I'm testing what I can get my hands on. I did germinate a few Prairie Princess last winter by conventional stratification of seeds that I found November 24 at the Reinisch Rose Garden in Topeka. I didn't want to look too conspicuous so I only picked a few hips. I got 9 germinations from 21 seeds. Golden Wings gave 1/42. SO P.P. is not bad in my book, or my climate perhaps.

This past fall I've set up maybe 3 dozen different CV. Many are ones I tested last year, some are not. I know I have at least 75 samples testing nitrate vs alternatives. But a dozen or more are R. canina which is a real dog. I already mentioned that R. pomifera is easy, and R. rugosa is recognized as fairly quick and easy. Those have sprouting that I have to deal with in a few days.
Larry Davis
Manhattan, KS

davidzlesak
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:01 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 40820Post davidzlesak
Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:47 pm

I'm surprised to see the speed of germination out of some of the polyantha/Synstylae section material. I had some seed dry in baggies in the fridge and one month ago today I divided these groups of op seed in half and put half in moist vermiculite (water only) and the other half in moist vermiculite moistened with 6M calcium nitrate. I put them in a fridge at 10C. One month later lots of op seed from the polyatha 'Sven' and op seed of a hybrid between 'Alba Meidiland' x the polyantha 'Ole' are germinating like mad. It seems like the number is not different between the treatments. Maybe since dormancy is relatively minimal in this germplasm is why. It'll be fun to see what happens with the other lots of seeds that have much stronger dormancy.

In the picture the baggie on the left is the water control and to the right the calcium nitrate. It was a little hard to get a good picture with the camera and condensation in the baggies. If I flipped the baggie on the left over there is a lot more germinating seedlings that can be seen, but the greater condensation on that side makes it hard to photograph.

[attachment 307 1202012CalciumnitrateroseseedgerminationIMG_63672.jpg]
David Zlesak
St. Paul, Minnesota USDA Cold Hardiness zone 4

ldavis
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:42 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 40827Post ldavis
Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:35 pm

Interesting result. I assume you meant 6 mM as above. Some recent testing suggest that maybe in fact cold storage, even in the hips, does hasten germination. For instance last winter I kept cold some of the Founder's Hill pink hips until January to start up tests. For curiousity sake I decided to do warm statification as well as cold. Soon I had germinations in the warm treatment, without any moist stratification at low temp beyond what they got in the hips, and without nitrate. But it was not a very hi % for any time duration up to 6 months. Still waiting on the cold treatment to start sprouting.

For some species (not roses) there are reports that nitrate substitutes for light or chilling requirments to some extent. So if your cold dry seeds, or warm dry seeds just need water to get going, maybe they've undergone after-ripening to the extent they don't benefit much from nitrate. A less felicitous thought- may be you waited too long to look. Perhaps the nitate treated were just a couple weeks ahead but by now (a month) everything is already near its peak. You'll have to see what the final % is. For some CV nitrate doesn't improve the final %, only the speed. For others it really increases the final % and the speed

Still trying to get this together for the newsletter..
Larry Davis
Manhattan, KS

davidzlesak
Posts: 161
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:01 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 40837Post davidzlesak
Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:34 pm

Hi Larry!! Yes 6mM!! Thank you!!! Great points about dormancy being alleviated by the time of starting the experiment from the time being stored dry and in the fridge. Dormancy was likely minimal and then nitrate didn't really have an opportunity to substitute for light or cold as cues. Great point of germination over time. I've been keeping an eye on them along the way here and germination in the baggies started happening at the same time. If I documented number of seeds each day germinating I'd have numbers to compare to look for fine differences which would have been interesting. I'm very excited to learn what happens with the rose seeds that are in the fridge now that have stronger dormancy!! I'm hopeful!! Your and other people's data here is really impressive!!!
David Zlesak
St. Paul, Minnesota USDA Cold Hardiness zone 4

jriekstins
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:54 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 40879Post jriekstins
Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:11 pm

Yes, the seeds with fragments (small, these were cleaned, just not as well as they should have been) of pulp are starting to germinate, and in a few weeks I should know how well, how many. I am now pushing 1000 (actually 993) seedlings, and this is a bit of an overwhelm. Now I can't wait for them to start budding and blooming so I can start the elimination round. I haven't removed the 3rd batch from the fridge yet, because I don't want to do anything to encourage them, but I have had a few of them germinate. This week I am making space for 24 more flats, because I have to move them away from the pool.
]Jackie, SoCal., zone 9b,coastal foothills

lrojewski
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:45 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 50357Post lrojewski
Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:35 pm

I missed out to the original article by one issue . Did You found the source ?

Lukasz

Zone 5, Poland
Lukasz from Poland
USDA 5b

ldavis
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:42 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 50358Post ldavis
Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:14 pm

I am the source. Also the anonymous user on pg 1 above. The newsletter just gives many examples, but the process is summarized in above 1st page messages. Use 10 mM calcium dinitrate which is about 1 teaspoon of say 5 grams, per gallon. Provide a medium to hold the solution. We use vermiculite but you could try other things.

I just did a test with dwarf pomegranate seeds. In warm stratification with the nitrate I have 18/30 germinated in a little over a month while seeds put in regular potting soil either continuously warm, or in a fluctuating greenhouse have zero so far. I didn't try cold because the DP is a mediterranean plant not adapted to frosty places. But it really responds to nitrate. The water control warm also has zero.
Larry Davis
Manhattan, KS

lrojewski
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:45 pm

Re: Germination with calcium nitrate-formula

Post: # 50362Post lrojewski
Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:22 pm

Thank you very much Larry.

Soon I will introduce myself on the forum more extensively

Happy Hybridizing!

Lukasz

zone 5 Poland
Lukasz from Poland
USDA 5b

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