Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

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KarelBvn
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:14 am
Location: Belgium

Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74376Post KarelBvn
Sat May 07, 2022 1:44 pm

Does anyone have experience with "Gloire des Rosomanes" as a parent? On HMF I see: 16,335 unique descendants. And I see "fragrant foliage". Which fragrance would this be?
https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.40908.1&tab=1
Karel

roseseek
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74377Post roseseek
Sat May 07, 2022 3:56 pm

Karel, I've had he best results using GdR's pollen as for me, it doesn't seem to want to set much seed. Mine is the virus indexed UC Davis plant so it's definitely correctly identified and "virus free". The foliage scent they mention is a sweet, peppery scent with a bit of cedar. It's a bit less intense version of what the California found rose, Grandmother's Hat. Like Grandmother's Hat's scent, it sticks to your hands when you handle the plant and doesn't wash off easily. I'm drawn to plants with those types of scents. My impression is, if you can imagine the Damask plant scent with its "pine" elements, combined with the peppery China scents, morphing the evergreen element into cedar instead of the pine, you have it.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

KarelBvn
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:14 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74378Post KarelBvn
Sun May 08, 2022 4:28 am

I wasn't aware that China's also had somekind of foliage scent. In Damask and Centifolia's the pine scent mainly comes from glands/hairs on the young leaves and flowerbuds and rubs off, but isn't "air borne". Is this the same with GDR and Grandmother's Hat? Or is it more similar to the foliage scent of a Rubiginosa, that can also "catch the wind" and be smelled from a distance on humid warm days?
I see GDR is triploid, that would explain the better results as pollen parent. Tetraploid x triploid would (according to a study I recently read) give the best results, even better than tetraploid x tetraploid.
I'm interested in breeding roses with more than just scent in their flowers. Every type of gland that produces somekind of scented oil that can be introduced in offspring would be nice. I've currently got R. primula, Magnifica, Applejack and several Moss Roses in my scope, to do some experiments. The peppery scent is new to me.
Karel

KarelBvn
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:14 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74379Post KarelBvn
Sun May 08, 2022 4:39 am

Sorry, I see it is tetraploid :), it was listed as triploid in the past.
Karel

roseseek
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74381Post roseseek
Sun May 08, 2022 1:22 pm

You might then enjoy Fedtschenkoana. It's plant scents impress me as Noble Fir with hardwood smoke. First generation hybrids of it with Dottie Louise (Orangeade X Basye's Legacy) resulted in the Noble Fir morphing into other types of evergreen as well as several very "mossed" seedlings. They are listed on Help Me Find.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

KarelBvn
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:14 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74382Post KarelBvn
Sun May 08, 2022 2:25 pm

The scent of R. fedtschenkoana you describe maybe leans towards the incense odour of R. primula? I saw one of the seedlings with quite some glands on the buds: 1-72-1DLFED7
It is striking how diverse the offspring of your cross is.
R. fedschenkoana has the reputation of having flowers that do not smell all that well? That would be a trait that I would not want to introduce to a rose :)
There is one reference of a 'Pigeon' on HMF that strongly suggests that GDR has R. fedtschenkoana in its make up: "This flash of white in a bloom is said to be a sign of china in the background of a rose and I can see china in the smoothness of the leaves. There is apparently a connection with some Bourbon rose too and I look suspiciously at its long thorns and think of R. fedtschenkoana. The leaves are the signature of ‘Gloire des Rosomanes’ - the margin is distinctly and deeply serrated. It has dark sea-green foliage, up to seven leaflets, and green canes with large blond new prickles which age to grey. The bud has long sepals and combined with the long and elegant receptacle."
Karel

roseseek
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74383Post roseseek
Sun May 08, 2022 3:14 pm

Fedtschenkoana blooms have the "Lindseed oil" scent, similar to Foetida. Foetida has been credited with having introduced the "fruity" scents into modern roses. I wouldn't worry about introducing any scent from Fed as it is already "in there" in Autumn Damask and that rose has a magnificent scent. The only comparison I can infer between Primula and Fed is in foliage scent intensity. Both can be highly scented in the right weather conditions, the same ones which allow floral scents to express themselves well. Who knows what's behind Rosomanes? Fed may already be "in there".
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

pacificjade
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74384Post pacificjade
Sun May 08, 2022 7:50 pm

Ive grown a Rosa primula for about 15 years now, and I think I give up on using it. The air is just too wet when it blooms, and even freezing pollen hasnt produced anything. The only hips I get are very rare and produce near-clones of the seed donor. I simply live in the wrong climate to use it imo.

KarelBvn
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:14 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74387Post KarelBvn
Mon May 09, 2022 1:17 pm

I've checked my plant hardiness zone. That would also be zone 8 and near the North sea. Quite humid. Maybe similar to NW Pacific climate. I'll give primula a go, but with low expectations :)
Tx for sharing.
Karel

KarelBvn
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:14 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74388Post KarelBvn
Mon May 09, 2022 1:23 pm

roseseek wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 3:14 pm
Fedtschenkoana blooms have the "Lindseed oil" scent, similar to Foetida. Foetida has been credited with having introduced the "fruity" scents into modern roses. I wouldn't worry about introducing any scent from Fed as it is already "in there" in Autumn Damask and that rose has a magnificent scent. The only comparison I can infer between Primula and Fed is in foliage scent intensity. Both can be highly scented in the right weather conditions, the same ones which allow floral scents to express themselves well. Who knows what's behind Rosomanes? Fed may already be "in there".
I'll have a look into some F1 hybrids of Fed. This is interesting.
Karel

roseseek
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74389Post roseseek
Mon May 09, 2022 2:08 pm

Some of my first generation seedlings had the Linseed oil scent, some had sweeter scents.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

KarelBvn
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:14 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74401Post KarelBvn
Wed May 11, 2022 2:52 pm

Haha :) I've looked into the F1 hybrids of Fed. Turns out you are the man with most experience in the matter. You have some very nice offspring.
This one is beautifull and with mossing! https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.302767
And this one: https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.168914

Did you have repeat flowering when crossing with repeat flowering modern roses? Or even in second generation? I've read about some experiments Delbard did, he had troubles getting repeat flowering when crossing with Fed.
Karel

roseseek
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74402Post roseseek
Wed May 11, 2022 3:25 pm

Thank you. There was an Orangeade X Fed seedling that flowered spring through fall, so it IS possible in the first generation. Plus, using something odd such as a triploid mini, you can obtain repeat in a generation. https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.73780 I used that with Pretty Lady (Scrivens) and it resulted in the thorniest semi climber with large, double flowers and heavy Linseed oil scent. Its flowers resemble Red Radiance but it doesn't flower as reliably as Red Fed did. There are odd things at play there when you can get repeat in the first generation then lose it in the third.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Karl K
Posts: 1481
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:49 pm

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74406Post Karl K
Thu May 12, 2022 9:15 pm

The GdR plants I've known and loved at the San Jose Heritage had a tendency to sport pale pink blooms, often only in part.
Image
so maybe 'Old Blush' was involved rather than Crimson China.

I have read so many contradictory descriptions I've about given up. It has been called a Bourbon, then said not to be a Bourbon. Pure Bengal, and not Bengal at all. Whatever it is, I like it. Some day I'll get to try Beaton's method of growing it as a hedge, whacking every other plant almost to the ground every other year. Another dream.

pacificjade
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74407Post pacificjade
Fri May 13, 2022 3:11 am

There was an Old Blush study done awhile ago. I tried to find it again, but could not. I know it included some of the red chinas. It included Pink Pet, among many other roses.

KarelBvn
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:14 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74410Post KarelBvn
Sat May 14, 2022 12:55 pm

roseseek wrote:
Wed May 11, 2022 3:25 pm
Thank you. There was an Orangeade X Fed seedling that flowered spring through fall, so it IS possible in the first generation. Plus, using something odd such as a triploid mini, you can obtain repeat in a generation. https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.73780 I used that with Pretty Lady (Scrivens) and it resulted in the thorniest semi climber with large, double flowers and heavy Linseed oil scent. Its flowers resemble Red Radiance but it doesn't flower as reliably as Red Fed did. There are odd things at play there when you can get repeat in the first generation then lose it in the third.
This is something I'll give a try when crossing with tetraploid species. Use a triploid.
Would miniature do something extra with roses genes you think? Unlock certain traits maybe?
Karel

KarelBvn
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:14 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74411Post KarelBvn
Sat May 14, 2022 1:08 pm

Kim (or anyone :) ). Would you recommend any particular roses that can "break" species dominance when crossing with species? Quite often when crossing species the offspring doesn’t defer all that much from the species parent. But of course my assumptions could be wrong. I've read some odd things with Kordesii for instance. I think some roses have the capacity to do spectacular things. Wich ones us the question.😊
Karel


pacificjade
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Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74414Post pacificjade
Sun May 15, 2022 6:38 pm

Use very compact semi-dwarf moderns also words, at the 2nd generation. At 2nd gen, they come back down to Earth. In first gen, in most cases, hybrid vigor will dominate. Selecting for high vigor and shorter foliage internodes can be helpful down the road.

In minis, as Kim suggests, similar is true. A mini like Sunrosa Red, as an example, would be more helpful than Magic Carousel. The former is very compact with short foliage internodes. The latter has longer foliage internodes and sometimes very long stem-on-stems.

Plazbo
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 12:18 am

Re: Gloire des Rosomanes - experiences

Post: # 74415Post Plazbo
Mon May 16, 2022 12:01 am

KarelBvn wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 1:08 pm
But of course my assumptions could be wrong. I've read some odd things with Kordesii for instance.
Kordesii isn't a species and despite the story of it being a self of Max Graf (rugosa x wichuriana) that doesn't really hold up, it's more likely max graf x modern given things like it's double flowers and leaflet count (MG is more 9 where Kordessi is more 5-7). So probably isn't representative of direct to species but possibly more of what you could expect from a 1st gen and breeding with a 1st gen.

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