How to fix a newbie mistake?

A meeting place for rose breeders.
SeasideRooftop
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:40 am

How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74268Post SeasideRooftop
Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:31 am

Hi everyone,
My first seedlings have their first flower buds, and as excited as I am, I can clearly see that I have a problem. This is entirely my fault: I made a mistake when I first planted the seeds.
Because I had to be away quite a bit in the last months, I put the seeds into one self-watering trough.
IMG_20220420_092414.jpg
Now I have seven seedlings growing in it, four of which are about to bloom, the other three germinated later and are way behind.
I want to separate them so they each have their own pot, but I'm afraid of killing the younger ones in the process.
Should I wait until the little ones are a little bigger? I am concerned that the roots of the larger ones are getting congested.
Second question is how big a pot should I give the "big" ones? Is 15 or 20 cm too much?
The seedlings are from hips I took from a mystery rose I found growing in an empty lot.
If anyone is curious the full story of the abandoned rose is here (bush shot in first post, close-ups further down):
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/62089 ... iment#n=47
By the way, I know the pictures over there aren't great, but if anyone has an ID for the mystery parent I would be very grateful! My tentative guess is White Queen Elizabeth, but not sure at all.

mntlover
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm
Location: Mazama, WA

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74270Post mntlover
Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:46 pm

I am assuming you wish to see these blooms that are setting now?
I would wonder if the sooner they are separated the better? I would prune the larger ones fairly well before transplanting. So you may wish to wait until the blooms have opened enough to see what they are going to be before pruning and transplanting.
I would think that the longer you wait the more the roots from the larger ones will continue to impede the smaller ones from developing.
Perhaps the smaller ones will be easier to transplant without as much root damage, if the roots have not grown out extensively?
Let us know what you try, and how it goes.
Duane

roseseek
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74272Post roseseek
Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:37 pm

Agree you should prune back the larger ones prior to transplanting them. Water well so the plants won't suffer as much stress from root loss. Use a pair of dinner forks (yes, plastic is fine) to loosen the soil around the plant and to lift it from the communal pot. Use whatever size pot you can easily accommodate where they are growing. Once repotted and watered well, you may want to use a spray bottle to mist the seedlings for a few days until they appear to be actively growing again then you can taper off to allow them to harden off. You shouldn't have any problems separating them and they should take off well. Good luck!
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

SeasideRooftop
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:40 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74275Post SeasideRooftop
Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:54 am

Thank you both so much!
@mntlover, yes, I think I would like to see the blooms before I proceed. I'm hoping they open soon so I can get this done asap. I did consider trying to get just the little ones out, but I have a feeling that once I start disturbing things, I might as well move them all. Thank you for the advice to prune them before moving them, I will do that!
@roseseek, thanks for the tip about the forks! I will definitely try that, and will water well before moving them. I might also use a spatula to loosen the edges beforehand. I hope they will be ok... Next time I will know better and will give each one their own pot from the get-go!

I can't wait to see what they will be like. I can already see some differences between the buds, and I wonder if those are any indication of the bloom shape.
As for color, if the ID of White Queen Elizabeth as the mother plant is correct, and if these are selflings (I think that's what they are but I don't know for sure), then I suppose I should expect pink blooms, right? The white is a sport so it won't get passed down, will it? Oh, I guess I will find out soon, but I can't resist speculating!
I will post pics here when they bloom. Thanks again to both of you!

roseseek
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74276Post roseseek
Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:54 am

You're welcome @seasiderooftop! Something you may be able to make use of is to transplant them just prior to a rain event (Rain? What's a 'rain'?). I plant mine in a table I made from fir fencing boards so they are in about 8" of soil in a 2' X 4' table up on saw horses. The bottoms are screen over hardware cloth, supported by slats resting on 2' X 4' so the soil is retained and the drainage is PERFECT. I allow them to germinate and grow their first season in those tables, then often prune them and transplant into pots just prior to expected rain. By the end of the rain, they are pushing new growth. Here are the tables. You can probably figure out the captions just from the images. Later, I built frames over the tops and stapled plastic mesh fencing over the top and three of the four sides to keep the birds out. The fourth side is a lift flap to gain entrance to the table. They are about 18" tall so there is room under them for the plants to put on some growth prior to transplanting. Yes, the roots definitely intermingle and I do have to separate them in moving them from the tables but it works and they survive.
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Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

SeasideRooftop
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:40 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74277Post SeasideRooftop
Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:34 am

Wow, that's an awesome setup @roseseek!
How cool is that table, and sooo many seeds! I love it.
It's also very reassuring to know you have them starting together with some root intermingling there and that it's not a problem! Thanks for sharing!

Plazbo
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 12:18 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74278Post Plazbo
Thu Apr 21, 2022 5:48 am

I'm similar to Kim in that seedlings are together and potentially stay that way for a year. Mine are just in planter troughs/pots (~75cm x ~30cm) (easier to move should I need to move).

Sometimes a seedling will be a whole lot more vigorous than what's around it and is shading out smaller seedlings, I tend to rip those (the vigorous) out (fairly literal, no potting mix is coming with that seedling so as to minimise the disruption to all the other seedlings) and prune, pot it up before rains, keep it shaded for a few days/week until it perks up. Seeding deaths only happening if rains don't come like predicted. Seedlings seem to handle a lot of abuse.

pacificjade
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74280Post pacificjade
Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:50 am

If you live in a damp climate, I would use a metal frame and these for a germination table: https://www.andersonpots.com/products/a ... hment/561/

That exact pot type can be ordered in various places. That's just the producer of it and rose seedling do very well with those.

Even treated lumber turns to messy garbage quite quickly in climates like mine.

SeasideRooftop
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:40 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74282Post SeasideRooftop
Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:12 pm

@Plazbo, I never would have thought they could handle that! I think with my lack of experience, I would probably break them if I tried pulling them out like that. But good to know they are tougher than they look!
As for rains... We don't get those often here, so I can't plan based on that. I laughed when I read @roseseek's "what's a "rain"?" joke, so relatable! Any water they get will be coming from my watering can, unfortunately!

@pacificjade, you are right, plastic would be a more durable option here. Although it hardly ever rains the air itself is humid, especially in a seaside location like mine. I will look into those pots for the future, thank you for the tip!

I am going to put the seedlings up on the roof tomorrow, hopefully a few extra hours of full sun might help accelerate the blooms so I can repot faster. I also just gave them some very light ferts (3-1-3, and only a half dose of it), some silica and a little calmag today.
They were under growlights at first, then when I left I put them in their current spot, where they only get direct sun from sunrise (6ish here) to about 11:30am. The next three days are around 20°C, sunny with a gentle breeze, so they should enjoy it, I hope!

pacificjade
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74290Post pacificjade
Fri Apr 22, 2022 9:24 pm

I forgot to note, since I do mine similar to Kim as well. Just with different materials due to climate. If you grow out your Year 1's, make sure not to sow seeds that will want to climb or became massive shrubs next to bush type seeds. They will out-compete everything near them.

In the Fall, it is quite easy to just take the seedlings apart and pot up the "keepers" for Year 2.

The more waste and expense one can cut out when hybridizing, the less stressful and $$$ful it will be.

minutifolia
Posts: 68
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:09 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74323Post minutifolia
Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:52 am

Hi SeasideRooftop. I'm not sure this technique will be helpful, but it has worked well for me as an alternative to the methods above. I have needed to do this because I have not made the effort to build or obtain the elegant systems described above. Sometimes I end up with perfectly healthy seedlings that have emerged from almost the same place. I move them by the time they have grown their first two true leaves, because after that time the smaller seedlings will begin to decline because of light competition. I scoop out a generous clump of soil, about the size of a golf ball, with 2 to 5 seedlings in it. I hold the soil ball in palm/fingers of my hand, the fingers slightly apart, forming a sieve. The seedling leaves and stems can be loosely controlled by the circle of the "OK" gesture. I lower the ball into a 2-quart plastic container of tepid water until the soil is under the water. Then I very gently dissolve the soil with small movements. Once the soil is gone, I separate the seedlings !! while they are under water!! , swirling the water slightly until the roots slide apart. If I need to keep a seedling comfortable while still dealing with the rest of the litter, I lay it against a small mound of wet soil mix then cover the roots with a bit more wet soil. Each seedling can be planted into a large 6-pack cell or a four-inch pot. I make sure the soil is sopping wet. I make a hole in the soil for the roots, place the plant, and push the hole closed from an inch away from the hole. I water immediately, gently shaking the pot to settle the soil. I put the pots in bright shade for a couple of days, then broken sunlight for a few days, then to full sun. With this method I usually have 100% survival with little-to-no transplant shock.

SeasideRooftop
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:40 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74328Post SeasideRooftop
Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:57 pm

Minutifolia, I just saw your post, thank you so much for this advice!
I was actually wondering about using water to help loosen the soil, but unsure how to do that. Your description of your method is very helpful. Thanks!
I am getting closer to moving them but these first buds are taking forever to open! Just a few more days I hope.
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pacificjade
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74329Post pacificjade
Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:47 pm

If you would like, you could post the seedling parent ID here. Concurrently, you can also post an ID ask on HMF under the "What is this?" subcategory found here:

https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/qc ... &tab=2&qn=

SeasideRooftop
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:40 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74330Post SeasideRooftop
Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:34 am

Thank you pacificjade!
I really would like to know who the mystery parent is.
Unfortunately the mother plant was removed from the empty lot where she was growing when it was excavated for construction, so all I have left to go on are a few rather poor photographs.
What I know for sure is that it was blooming in December and that it had hips, that it is a white rose with large blushed pink buds, the height was about 150cm, upright, only about 90cm max width.
It seemed disease-free , clearly no one had been spraying this abandoned rose.
The flowers were large with mild-medium scent, seemed to have a rather cupped or globular form.
The plant seemed rather old based on the thickness of the stems at the base.
I am guessing a. Hybrid Tea? Maybe White Queen Elizabeth?
In Malta we don't get any of the roses bred in the US or Australia so that somewhat restricts the options to a Europe/UK origin.
Here are the pictures I have, sorry they aren't great and I can't take more since the rose is gone.
I will also make a post on HMF later in the hopes that someone can ID it.
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SeasideRooftop
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:40 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74331Post SeasideRooftop
Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:36 am

Pics:
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SeasideRooftop
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:40 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74332Post SeasideRooftop
Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:40 am

And a few more
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SeasideRooftop
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:40 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74333Post SeasideRooftop
Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:43 am

And that's all I have!
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pacificjade
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74334Post pacificjade
Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:51 pm

You may be on to something. I saw Royal QE could also be it.

I tried to look at stamens of any of the white QE sports to see if they had pinkish male parts like in your photo, but could not find any showing male parts. It is a little hard to tell some traits since it was in a pot, but so far it seems like there is a chance it is a QE sport.

SeasideRooftop
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:40 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74335Post SeasideRooftop
Thu Apr 28, 2022 4:16 am

Thanks for your insight pacificjade!
This is a closeup pic of White QE from a European site (pharmarosa). I think the stamens look pretty similar in their pinkish color:
rosa-white-queen-elizabeth-bianco-rose-grandiflora-floribunda-52-494-premio-bronze-1.png
I think that and your suggestion of Royal QE are the closest I know to the rose I took the hips from.

pacificjade
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

Re: How to fix a newbie mistake?

Post: # 74336Post pacificjade
Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:10 am

Yep. Nice reference find!

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