Time and Temperature

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Karl K
Posts: 1481
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:49 pm

Time and Temperature

Post: # 74170Post Karl K
Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:07 pm

Different species of a single genus can avoid cross-breeding by a variety of mechanisms. One of these is for the flowers to be receptive at different times of the day, even when they bloom during the same season. And "time of day" usually translates to "preferred temperature".

For example, Gladiolus tristis is a South African species is normally pollinated by night-flying moths. Takatsu et al. (2001) found that the pollen tubes of this species grow fastest at 20°C [68°F], and fertilized the flowers most effectively [best fruit-set] at 15°C [59°F]. To the contrary, the garden variety 'Traveller' favored 30°C [86°F].

The difference in time-of-day receptivity also applies to roses, and is sometimes indicated by the release of perfume at only when needed to attract pollinators (not us, by the way). For example, Fernald (1926) found that Rosa nitida becomes fragrant in the dark. So does Gladiolus tristis. I don't know what Nitida's preferred temperature for pollination is, but I'm guessing that "cool" would be close.

Heslop-Harrison (1921) wrote, "I therefore got up earlier, at 4 a.m. (GMT), before any insects were at work, when I found that even then every newly expanded R. pimpinellifolia had its stigmas powdered with pollen from its own overarching stamens."

Then, W. Paul (1848) quoted Boitard: "... M. Noisette, a French cultivator, has never sown seeds of the Chinese Roses (R. INDICA) without raising some Scotch Roses (R. SPINOSISSIMA) from them. He states, This fact is not supported by a solitary occurrence, but has been frequently observed by that cultivator, and is further attested by the evidence of M. Laffay, who raises seedlings on an extensive scale, and has this year between 200,000 and 300,000."

Similarly, Thomas Rivers (1843) described his own observation:
"About four years since, in a pan of seedling Moss Roses, was one with a most peculiar habit, even when very young; this has since proved a hybrid rose, partaking much more of the Scotch Rose than of any other, and till the plant arrived at full growth I thought it a Scotch Rose, the seed of which had by accident been mixed with that of the Moss Rose, although I had taken extreme care: to my surprise it has since proved a perfect hybrid, having the sepals and the fruit of the Provence Rose, with the spiny and dwarf habit of the Scotch Rose; it bears abundance of hips, which are all abortive. The difference in the fruit of the Moss and Provence Roses and that of the Scotch is very remarkable, and this it was which drew my particular attention to the plant in question; it was raised from the same seed, and in the same seed-pan, as the Single Crimson Moss Rose: as this strange hybrid came from a Moss Rose accidentally fertilised, we may expect that art will do much more for us."

The Scotch-Moss rose, 'Andrewsii' must be of similar origin.

I won't get into the Spinosissima/Pimpinellifolia mess. It is apparent that it/they can pollinate its/their own flowers, and have enough left over to fertilize other species that are receptive early in the morning ... even if not quite so early as the pollinators. Heslop-Harrison also mentioned some hybrids of Caninae species pollinated by Pimpinellifolia.

It is also apparent that the Indica group and the Provincialis group are receptive at about the same time. Thus, the Bourbon roe.

The next clearly marked group are species that are fragrant in the evening or dusk.

Allen: Rosa arvensis: A problem wild rose (1987)
"After the circulation of my information paper in 1979, John Watts, in North Wales, made some careful observations in the Conwy area, where the species is common locally, and he reported the flowers as scentless by day but sometimes having a faint scent, just discernible, at dusk in warm weather."

HelpMeFind: Rosa clinophylla (5 Mar 2022)

Plazbo (Australia): "Not quite night night yet but just past sunset (but can still mostly see without a torch if that makes sense) and it's very mild and inoffensive. The flowers close up at night though so nocturnal pollinators would be 'locked out' as it were."

This may explain why it has been so difficult to repeat the cross that produced R. hardii. The Hulthemia pollen must last long enough to pollinate the R. clinophylla blossoms around dusk, and still find the temperature suitable.\

Rosa moschata (the only specimen I have had many opportunities to sniff) is fragrant in the morning and afternoon. But a close cousin (?) is different.

Sprenger: Rosa moschata var Korfuana (1923)
"They smell particularly fine in the late evening, at night and in the fresh morning. During the day their volatile oil seems to evaporate so rapidly that little or nothing remains perceptible to the human sense of smell. It is a mild, pleasant musky scent. One collects the rosettes for its sake, to put them between the laundry and clothes, but also in winter to stretch the tea with them, which then regulates the digestion better."

For links and more examples:
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/KKing/TemperatureFertility.html

rikuhelin1
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Time and Temperature

Post: # 74188Post rikuhelin1
Tue Apr 05, 2022 12:41 pm

Interesting read, allows me to wander in rose roulette that noting whats outside germinating can be a diamond in the rough … useful … just parents id unlikely to ever be an absolute.

One off tangent interesting learning from visiting a vanilla indoor operation in tropics … was the claim vanilla is dependent only on one variety of Mexican wasp who figured out where the pollen was. Apparently growers have to hand pollinate each flower. Plantation in Kona.
Riku

Margit Schowalter
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Time and Temperature

Post: # 74197Post Margit Schowalter
Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:01 pm

Thank you for this Karl. I have a nice yellow once blooming, cane hardy, open pollinated single from 'J.P. Connell' which apparently was pollinated by 'Ross Rambler 6', itself an op seedling (Rosa laxa Retzius x R. spinosissima altaica),[Ross Rambler being a vigorous form of R. laxa] which was located 50 yards distant rather than by a nearby modern rose. The seedling inherited the yellow colour from J>P> Connell and a prickly, vigorous architecture from RR6.

Several [i]R. spinossisima[/i] altai hybrids were introduced by the early Canadian prairie plants men, I wonder if the spinosissima pollen fertility played a role there too.
Attachments
(J.P. Connell x R.R.6) Five feet tall, 2nd blooming year
(J.P. Connell x R.R.6) Five feet tall, 2nd blooming year

pacificjade
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Time and Temperature

Post: # 74202Post pacificjade
Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:38 am

That is so pretty.

Margit Schowalter
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Time and Temperature

Post: # 74221Post Margit Schowalter
Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:10 am

Thank you Pacificjade. It sets a few op hips but has not set hips with any pollens I have tried so far including J.P. Connell.
And no mothers have accepted its pollen either. I hope it will eventually cross with a yellow repeat bloomer and retain zone 3 cane hardiness....

rikuhelin1
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Time and Temperature

Post: # 74223Post rikuhelin1
Sat Apr 09, 2022 3:01 pm

Seems from personal experience to documented history points to the path of least resistance is to use spinos as pollen parents… unless want to get up at 5 am to try dusting.
Riku

aimbeault
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:51 pm

Re: Time and Temperature

Post: # 74228Post aimbeault
Sun Apr 10, 2022 1:08 pm

Wow Margit, what a beautiful yellow rosebush, congratulations! Maybe Bill Reid, Morden Sunrise and Olds College Rose could be interesting as yellow candidates for your goal. Those are probably already on your list, good luck?!
André.
André
Est du Québec, Canada, zone 3b.

Margit Schowalter
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: Time and Temperature

Post: # 74229Post Margit Schowalter
Sun Apr 10, 2022 4:38 pm

Thank you Andre for the suggestions. I will try again this spring..

Karl K
Posts: 1481
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:49 pm

Re: Time and Temperature

Post: # 74253Post Karl K
Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:10 pm

I've done more searching and found that my assumption about Rosa arvensis being pollinated in the evening/night is wrong.
The authors below discussed a wide range of plants, and how they provide food for bees and other pollinators. The times listed are when the flowers are producing the most pollen. The precise timing is influenced by environmental factors, but give an approximation.

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... n1974.html
Pollen: Biology Biochemistry Management (1974)

R.G. Stanley, H.F. Linskens
Figure 7-6b
R. blanda 7:30 - 10:00
R. rugosa 6:30 - 11:00
R. setigera 6:30 - 11:00
R. xanthina 7:00 - 12:00
R. arvensis 6:30 - 10:00
R. multiflora 6:30 - 10:30

They also mention research indicating that pollen collected early in the day gives better germination than pollen from the same plants later in the day.

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/SearsB ... n1936.html
Sears (1937) discussed some cases where the incompatibility factor(s) could be overcome by pollinating before the flowers would ordinarily open. I don't know whether this would apply to roses, but I do recall reading (long, long ago) that 'Dortmund' flowers have the annoying habit of being self-pollinated before opening. So, maybe bud pollination should be given a try.

rikuhelin1
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Time and Temperature

Post: # 74255Post rikuhelin1
Thu Apr 14, 2022 2:01 pm

Txs for continuing to provide good doses of useful applied science to augment and compliment other forms.
Riku

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