Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

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rikuhelin1
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Re: Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

Post: # 74471Post rikuhelin1
Fri Jun 03, 2022 8:52 pm

Well maybe, time will tell if true that its Butter Ball x 6910. From 2 year stratification - 2nd a full winter outside.
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Riku

MidAtlas
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Re: Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

Post: # 74481Post MidAtlas
Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:16 pm

Those seem like great germination numbers compared to what you were getting before, so it seems to be holding up as a good strategy for those stubborn types. There might well be more sprouts later that further increase your percentages. Then again, 20-25% germination seems pretty decent to me, especially considering that once-bloomers (although hopefully you're not only getting those!) will probably take more space and time to evaluate.

You've inspired me to shove my 'Alika' OP seeds from 2020 into the freezer--since nothing else was working, there's little to lose, but it will be interesting to see if that has any effect. Then again, if I end up with a pile of seedlings in a few months that need to go under lights all winter, I'm definitely blaming you. As for the more conventional types that get by with mere moist refrigeration for a few months, I'm up to my eyeballs in seedlings and am well into the "oh no, not another one" stage with some crosses... clearly, some rose species and their hybrids are playing by different rules.

Plazbo, you're probably right that at least some of the limited use of R. xanthina as a seed parent in the past was due to its early flowering... I'm so used to freezing pollen by now that it's hard to imagine anyone not doing it! I do think that the whole group of early yellow species has a low germination percentage as a general rule, though. I had some R. primula plants that got large before they died (it's challenging for them here) and managed to produce copious fruits and seeds. Some years after the parents' deaths, seedlings have occasionally appeared in favorable spots. I think they might be programmed to play the long game.

Stefan

rikuhelin1
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Re: Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

Post: # 74488Post rikuhelin1
Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:14 am

Hi Stefan good luck with Alika.

None of mine have germinated … ever. However there is one green growth sign in a 2 cycle stratification cross pot.

I did not mention as its’ probably something else - waiting for post proto leaf appearance to avoid sketchy engineering science observations. Its large proto leaves look like a “plantain”.

Its in a pot at right soil horizon labelled as a cross of GJ x Alika.

Your right even with my low numbers and a now developed eye for spotting field garden germination … culling time is raising its conerns.
Riku

rikuhelin1
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Re: Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

Post: # 74489Post rikuhelin1
Sun Jun 05, 2022 9:57 am

… no comment from me … other than highly sceptical … even imagine l seen immature bristles on secondary leaf start
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Riku

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Re: Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

Post: # 74494Post MidAtlas
Sun Jun 05, 2022 10:12 pm

Oh yeah, bristles are plainly visible there--it would be interesting to hear how it turns out, and at least you'll know fairly soon. After seeing a very high percentage of freakish seedlings this cycle from Gertrude Jekyll crossed with Applejack (the first time I've played with GJ), I actually wouldn't be too surprised to see something like that cropping up. While none had exactly that kind of look, most of the oddballs had different abnormalities. Only a small minority of the seedlings have been fairly normal. It makes me wonder if the results would be any different using GJ as a pollen parent, although that direction probably wouldn't work very well with either Alika (refusal to germinate) or Applejack (near-total refusal to produce seed with most applied pollen).

rikuhelin1
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Re: Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

Post: # 74497Post rikuhelin1
Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:09 pm

… interesting coincidence this spring plant … l brought in Lumo from Denmark (Finn but not really) … seedling of Applejack collected at Minnesota Arboretum ending up in Finkand.

The N/A Applejack doesn’t last in my south gardens … 2x

… so using tenuous scifi decided to give the Finn raised one a go. Guess will try an Alika cross when Lumo ready and proves it will survive to bloom. Will compare notes back to Minnesota roots.

Mind you there is scifi potential as the Finn variety a blanda sailed through its first winter in north gardens with no damage, or protection, unlike my “Pickering” version of old (so did Francofurtana).

As l said scifi experiment. And a Lillian Gibson planted beside the Finn blanda lost 40% of its cane.
Riku

rikuhelin1
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Re: Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

Post: # 74506Post rikuhelin1
Wed Jun 08, 2022 3:26 pm

Ooops sorry, checked again - the label - and not my memory.

Its actually Alika (seed parent) x Gertrude Jekyll (pollen parent). Back when l was crossing hardy and tenders “the wrong way”.

So this erratum has a double upside. If a real cross, great maybe get a fragrant double … and germinated and altered Alika seed.

If not, means l germinated Alika so you have hope with “Life … just Below Zero” for your seeds.

In either case, an Alika seed germinated for first time by me with nature/ pioneer’s method with one case maybe having transferred “tender genes”. Better case in my books and potential for hardy on top.
Riku

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Re: Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

Post: # 74509Post MidAtlas
Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:58 pm

Well, that's definitely something--and it does give me a little bit of hope for my Alika seeds (although it would have gone better done the other way around--GJ seems to be a good seed setter and easy conventional germinator). I'm planning to use only pollen from Alika from now on, unless some completely irresistible match with something that won't even produce seed comes to mind.

Has cold-hardiness been the main problem with Applejack for you, then? I also noticed Lumo on HMF a while back and was slightly intrigued--partly because AJ is so reluctant to cross with anything. I did get one hip with one seed to mature on AJ after applying copious amounts of very fertile pollen to many blossoms; luckily, that seed germinated and survived. I'm glad to hear that Lumo has made the return oceanic voyage, and hope that it is a real improvement over AJ for you.

I'm sure that with most species having much of a natural range, provenance matters, and the Pickering R. blanda might just not have been built for life on the northern prairies (I'm assuming that it was correctly identified, at least). I was never tempted to try it from them because I had a ready supply of Minnesotan native material, which I'm pretty sure would fare well enough in your area. I have a R. palustris clone from Florida that looks like it ought to be a different species from the "normal" northern forms. It's probably less surprising that Lilian Gibson would have more trouble with your winters, since it had a hybrid tea parent!

rikuhelin1
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Re: Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

Post: # 74510Post rikuhelin1
Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:57 pm

Yes Apple Jack seemed to have problems with my garden. Sadly nearly all the Bucks l tried did not make it - south garden, including two tries of prairie princess and earth song … but on 2nd or 3rd try of Pink Carfree beauty … success, its been going for ~7years plus … no idea why. Planted under a large Butter Ball. Loses about 50-60% of canes but doubles height and is an excellent bloomer and hip generator - gave me a sport cane (pale striped) but couldn’t strike it. Even remembered to put it on my list as seed parent this year.

One contributor says there is blanda all over the place in his Alberta city. I wouldn’t recognize it. I have grown a pickering R. Paultris scandens? for years but not seen a bloom and grow is an exaggeration. R. Nitida takes a beating in garden - but saw one bloom for first time last year. And Metis struggles by losing half to third of its canes - but a great bloom form when l get one.

Lillian another two cycle success - two seedlings. Unusual in that it rarely sets hips for me - and when it does it tends to be localized and only a half dozen clustered close together on one or two canes. Hoping for the right bee or hover fly that dove into a hardy flower first before visiting lillian.
Riku

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Re: Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

Post: # 74512Post MidAtlas
Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:07 pm

I also had trouble with a lot of Buck roses in central Minnesota. They (the ones I tried) seem to have been selected and introduced as crown-hardy roses based on their survival in central Iowa, which is far to the south of where I lived; in addition to lacking in cane hardiness, many also seemed insufficiently resistant to blackspot without the prairie winds to dry off the leaves (I lived in a more sheltered and densely wooded area). It was far from clear that any given decently disease-resistant modern rose wouldn't survive better than a typical Buck selection. I considered them to be more or less glorified floribundas. Of course, Applejack is a pretty different creature from Buck's later introductions, but every rose has its limits.

Rosa 'Palustris Scandens' only seems to be part R. palustris (maybe half); the other part seems to be R. chinensis, and so it's little wonder that it would perform poorly for you. If you had a reasonably northern form of the straight species, you'd probably see a different result, although R. palustris might still not be perfectly adapted to northern prairie conditions. For what it's worth, the Florida material that I grow is essentially a suckering climber with vicious hooked thorns as large as an alligator's teeth. The flowers look (innocently) like any other North American species rose, but they demand a blood sacrifice from passers-by.

Rosa nitida is a very coastal eastern species, so I can see how it might struggle with extremely cold winters and/or non-acidic soil... I never tried it in MN, although at least our soil pH there wasn't alkaline.

I haven't seen any hips on Lilian Gibson yet. I hope you sow every seed you get... you never know.

pacificjade
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Re: Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

Post: # 74514Post pacificjade
Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:00 am

Rosa nitida got really bad downy here every single year without fail. So I discarded it. I imagine later hybrids would be more useful.

rikuhelin1
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Re: Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

Post: # 74520Post rikuhelin1
Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:00 pm

Txs for the info and experience sharing.

… walk about today brings some good hybridizing potential. Noticed my 2 year old winter protected, thornless climber, Lykkefund is developing early bud florets.

Its rumoured to be a European natural cross between “MF helenae hybrida, and a thornless bourbon, Zeffy (believed to be if memory is to be trusted?).

This is a pollen and seed parent option l wanted to try especially with 6910, or francofurtana, agatha etc..
Riku

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Re: Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

Post: # 74522Post MidAtlas
Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:28 pm

I think that's an excellent idea--now, 'Lykkefund' is probably a diploid in my opinion (I'm a bit skeptical that 'Zephirine Drouhin' was the other parent), so it might work a little better used as a seed parent in crosses like tetraploids like those. If you catch the buds at the right stage, you can collect their pollen while emasculating them. It works well as a seed parent, although I wouldn't personally recommend the sub-zero sowing method! Instead, allow the seeds to dry out completely (as long as you like--weeks or months) before soaking them for ~8 hours and then stratifying in the refrigerator.

rikuhelin1
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Re: Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

Post: # 74600Post rikuhelin1
Fri Jun 24, 2022 3:41 pm

Stefan, truth in garden hybridizing journalism is useful builds credibility, almost good as developing a new rose ... point being, Alika remains unconquered by me (or more like ornery to work with).

The supposed alika x GJ seedlings proto leaf suspicions I had were correct ... think its a "delphinium" though not yet completely "serrated" to penta-lobed as the ones in my garden ... and there are lots.
Riku

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Re: Boston North Slump Over for Germination?

Post: # 74615Post MidAtlas
Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:06 pm

Sorry to hear about your "cuckoo" Delphinium seedling--some of the bizarre GJxAJ seedlings I mentioned have come around, but one or two still have this very odd, narrow foliage. I don't know exactly what's going on with them, but at least I'm pretty sure they didn't result from stray Delphinium pollen!

I'm sure that 'Alika' will be better used as a pollen parent now, too. Onward and upward, I guess... The pollen is in the freezer, single and ready to mingle.

Stefan

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