Rugosa×Hulthemia hybrids?

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SeasideRooftop
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:40 am

Re: Rugosa×Hulthemia hybrids?

Post: # 74256Post SeasideRooftop
Fri Apr 15, 2022 7:12 am

Thank you @Plazbo!
I will keep some of them, you never know. BDdC is right next to Huddersfield Choral Society and they flowered at the same time, if they mixed that might be fun. I will admit I would not be excited about a selfling of BDdC though.
One other I am not deadheading is Wild Edric. Yes I know, he's supposed to be infertile and not set hips but I am going to leave a few of his spent flowers on just to see if maaayybeeeee... It has been insanely windy here, perhaps it might have shaken up the pollen in the flowers as they were opening enough for a miracle to happen.

@pacificjade, I get it, I do the same online. Thank you so much for the suggestion of a possible route to go with the Rugosa-Persica crossings! I am just getting started on this journey and really appreciate the pointers I am getting on this forum!

SeasideRooftop
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:40 am

Re: Rugosa×Hulthemia hybrids?

Post: # 74551Post SeasideRooftop
Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:28 pm

They were blooming at the same time, so I just tried to cross Jean de Luxembourg, a Ducher rugosa hybrid (DUCjdl), with Eyes on Me (CHEwsumsigns, aka Raspberry Kiss or Bright as a Button).
I tried to make the cross both ways.
The Hulthemia hybrid's stamens released lots of pollen, the Rugosa hybrid hardly, but a little.
I'm hoping that since JDL doesn't look to be very Rugosa, it might work. Then again, unfortunately, there's no information on HMF about JDL's lineage to give me any clues about fertility.
I'll update here if either takes.

hjortur
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Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:16 pm

Re: Rugosa×Hulthemia hybrids?

Post: # 74553Post hjortur
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:21 am

I have always thought this would be a nice way forward to go with hulthemia hybrids. I have tried using mixed pollen of various hulthemia hybrids on some hardy rugosa hybrids such as 'Lac Majeau', 'Will Aldermann' and 'Dart's Defender'. The descendants do not carry much rugosa characteristics and they are below average in terms of healthiness and growth. Lac Majeau carries a juvenile flowering gene and some of its descendants flowers during their first year. I have had some interesting offspring but yet none with a blotch. The 'Dart's Defender' offspring had problems with genetic incompability and many died just after germinating (roots did not develop). I have some plants left that show promise but they have not yet flowered (they have very nice foliage). I have just added 'Will Aldermann' as a mother in this line of breeding, as I have found that it carries a juvenile flowering gene, it doesn't seem to accept pollen as easily as 'Lac Majeau'.

I have not started to test for hardiness and I am not sure on how to go forward. I would like to find some nice plants that have some fertility (despite the triploidy) and work those with some hardy shrub roses. Hardiness in the F1 is perhaps not attainable at this point.

pacificjade
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Rugosa×Hulthemia hybrids?

Post: # 74555Post pacificjade
Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:44 am

[quote=hjortur post_id=74553 time=1655464919 user_id=2284]
I have not started to test for hardiness and I am not sure on how to go forward. I would like to find some nice plants that have some fertility (despite the triploidy) and work those with some hardy shrub roses. Hardiness in the F1 is perhaps not attainable at this point.
[/quote]

If the cross is wide enough, 1 generation of selfing could be tolerated and picked through for greater hardiness. After that, most of rosaceae are highly intolerant.

Rugosa #3 is probably a good bet for such a project, but I am not sure if anyone has it now.

Rheinaupark is a seed fertile triploid, allegedly.

Karl K
Posts: 1491
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:49 pm

Re: Rugosa×Hulthemia hybrids?

Post: # 74572Post Karl K
Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:54 pm

Just a thought, here. The DNA data (Koopmen 2008) suggests that Hulthemia is akin to Rosa foetida, rather than off by itself.
And then, there is a growing body of evidence that Rosa roxburghii is allied to the diploid Pimpinellifoliae.

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... A2008.html
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... A2013.html

So, if you want to get some Rugosa-ness into the Hulthemia line, it might be worth trying R. x micrugosa, raised from Rugosa and Roxburghii. This might (?) be a helpful bridge. This one is called 'Walter Butt'.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pict ... rbutt.html

SeasideRooftop
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:40 am

Re: Rugosa×Hulthemia hybrids?

Post: # 74573Post SeasideRooftop
Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:43 am

Thank you for this fantastic information, Karl K!
I will look for Walter Butt, and any other microrugosas I might be able to order in the fall.
This information also gives me some hope about the crossing I just attempted.
Although Jean de Luxembourg's parents are undisclosed, it is postulated that he might be a seedling of Dr Eckner, which has foetida in it's lineage, albeit distantly (via Golden Emblem, Constance, Rayon d'Or and Soleil d'Or). Personally I believe it's not impossible Ducher may have backcrossed Dr Eckener with one of its Pernet-Ducher ancestors (specifically Constance) to get JdL, which would have added even more foetida to the mix. But that's all hypothetical of course.

jAc123
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:46 pm

Re: Rugosa×Hulthemia hybrids?

Post: # 74578Post jAc123
Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:10 pm

Hi Seasiderooftop, I'm not familiar with Jean de Luxembourg, but from the (few) pics I've seen on HMF it looks like it could be related to Rugelda. Rugelda is 1/4 rugosa, Bonanza x Robusta. I also believe that Tantau's hybrid tea Augusta Luise and its sport Aquarell may come from Rugelda. I grow Aquarell, and if you watch it in early spring, young foliage is deeply serrated and quite veiny. When you look old leaves it is less obvious, but still more serrated than the typical hybrid tea. All these varieties seem to have a tendency to get pink overshadings for sun exposure and wavy petals (this would come from Bonanza), a characteristic bud (when sepals start folding, the point is already opening and spiraling, like if the top part had been cut off) and glossy, veiny and serrated leaves. Aquarell and Augusta Luise also get some nice reddish foliage in the autumn. They're also very thorny, much like rugosas, but with modern-type (and size) thorns (pruning them is not fun!). If my impression is correct and they're seedlings of Rugelda, that would make them 1/8 rugosa: not much, but not bad as a starting point.

SeasideRooftop
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:40 am

Re: Rugosa×Hulthemia hybrids?

Post: # 74579Post SeasideRooftop
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:02 pm

Thank you jac123!
It could also be Rugelda, I agree.
I didn't know that about Augusta Luise, very interesting.
By a fun coincidence, I just bought a potted AL last week, and am expecting the delivery in a few days. I will experiment with breeding her with JdL sometime, if he turns out to have some fertility.
I wish Ducher would disclose the parentage! I did try asking them for some info after buying it from them; at the time, I only wanted to know if I should treat it like a rugosa or a HT. Their answer was "never spray it!", so whatever JdL is, is rugosa enough to be intolerant of any spraying.

pacificjade
Posts: 901
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

Re: Rugosa×Hulthemia hybrids?

Post: # 74583Post pacificjade
Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:24 am

Or Rokoko.

Be funny if it was Rugelda x Rokoko lol.

A lot of Rugelda descendants are far healthier, but lost rugosa traits. Although many of them have sandpaper-textured foliage. Kordes has disclosed some of them, but not all of them.

You could look at a new Kordes intro and throw a 6-sided die with Kronjuwel, Rugelda, Gelber Engel, Amber Flush, Bernstein-Rose, and Centenaire de Lourdeson it. 50% chance odds what you are looking at is a descendent of what the die landed on 🤣

jAc123
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:46 pm

Re: Rugosa×Hulthemia hybrids?

Post: # 74584Post jAc123
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:06 am

SeasideRooftop wrote:
Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:02 pm
I didn't know that about Augusta Luise, very interesting.
By a fun coincidence, I just bought a potted AL last week, and am expecting the delivery in a few days. I will experiment with breeding her with JdL sometime, if he turns out to have some fertility.
Aquarell (which is a sport of AL, so I would guess they are similarly fertile) has at least some partial fertility. It does set OP hips, but I've never tried pollinating, nor I have ever sown its seeds. It does produce release abundant pollen, which led to hips and a few seedlings, on Kordes' Golden Gate. These seedlings died in a hailstorm when they had no more than four leaves, but I did not bother trying the cross again. I guess you could try with her as a seed parent, as hips are big and with copious seeds. I think it may be partially parthenocarpic: my plant starts developing a hip basically for each flower, but then drops about half of them after about 4-6 weeks. If you open these immature hips, they had no seeds forming.

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