fragrant leaves

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mntlover
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm
Location: Mazama, WA

fragrant leaves

Post: # 74084Post mntlover
Wed Mar 16, 2022 12:26 pm

I was watering a small tray of seedlings yesterday and some aroma caught my attention. I sniffed again, and then narrowed my search to the tray I held. One tiny seedling (out of the tray full) has a fairly strong fragrance for its diminutive size (first two true leaves just appeared). It is certainly a sweet apple fragrance: the parentage is Aloha Hawaii x Gypsy Boy.
Any thoughts as to which side the fragrance would have come from?

I have one other seedling this year (so far) with a strong citrus fragrance to the leaves: I find it extremely pleasant.
This one is Lady Emma Hamilton x Chinook Sunrise.
I have two other seedlings that are several years old that have the apple fragrance (both of those were a surprise also).
Is anyone working towards breeding fragrance in leaves?

I am wondering if these would be worth working with, or if I should ignore the trait? How readily is it passed on?
None of the parents I have worked with have a fragrance to their leaves, at least not strong enough for me to have noticed.

Any thoughts on the issue?
Duane

roseseek
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74085Post roseseek
Wed Mar 16, 2022 2:26 pm

My guess would be Gypsy Boy. The OGR side would have more plant scent glands than most moderns would possess. Perhaps the combination you made allowed that trait to come through in that particular seedling. It's a crap shoot and lovely when one gives you something delightfully unexpected. Congratulations and good luck that it continues performing well enough to keep studying.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Plazbo
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 12:18 am

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74087Post Plazbo
Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:17 am

I agree with Kim. Don't forget that Gypsy Boy, in some way, descends from Russelliana which is said (I can't confirm) to have fragrant foliage.

The type of scent may be coming from Aloha Hawaii (with Cläre Grammerstorf on both sides and not too far back, there'd be potential rubiginosa influence) but the glands are likely coming from Gypsy Boy.

I'm working towards fragrant foliage but trying to mine it from closer to species, so slow and not really far enough into to it to comment much. Any modern types I get with fragrant foliage are more along the "peppery" side and I'm not as impressed with that.

I suspect it's a trait requiring a bunch of genes and is prone to being disrupted so maintaining it may need a bit of inbreeding or relatively related breeding to "fix" the trait. I would try breeding the new seedling with the two older seedlings to see if the the resulting seedlings inherit the trait, given both parents have fragrant foliage.

mntlover
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm
Location: Mazama, WA

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74088Post mntlover
Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:32 pm

Thanks for the thoughts!
It would be good if Gypsy Boy passes this on sometimes, as I've used it in a lot of crosses (both ways), with germinations just starting.
I was not aware Russelliana had fragrant foliage, good to know.
I had looked at Aloha Hawaii's parentage, but don't know Clare Grammerstorf, so good to note.
I had worked with Rugelda before, and was considering Westerland, until I ended up with Aloha Hawaii by accident; so sticking with it until results have enough time to manifest themselves. I will make not if any other seedlings from it have this fragrance (other than from Gypsy Boy pollen).
Thanks for the thought of crossing the new seedling with the older ones! I'll try that if one of them will work as seed parent.
I will also keep my nose open to see if any more of Gypsy Boy's seedlings have fragrance, then cross with those as well.

Any thoughts specifically for the citrus smelling one? All of them have a sweet fragrance, but this one definitely smells different.
Is anyone aware of any rose that has this fragrance in its leaves that I could cross it with?
Thanks again!
Duane

roseseek
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74089Post roseseek
Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:47 pm

The ability to transmit and express those plant scents would seem to me to be dependent upon the plant's ability to transmit and express the glandular character which would also provide the scent to mossing. I wonder if using the more modern parents you've used with mosses would create mossy offspring? Perhaps you've tapped into what Ralph Moore called "the mossing factor"? It's highly common for many species and European OGR's to express those plant part scents. Chinese species and old hybrids appear rather limited in comparison to mainly the "peppery" scent of some accepted "China Rose" types. The evolution and morphing of those scents is as involved as the evolution and morphing of flower scents. Fedtschenkoana smells like Nobel Fir with hardwood smoke to me. First generation crosses with Dottie Louise (Orangeade X Basye's Legacy) produced smooth and mossy seedlings with plants scents of other evergreen types. Second and third generation crosses with other moderns usually diluted the intensity of those scents with some not possessing any, and always modified them into less complex types with one smelling just like pine sap.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

mntlover
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm
Location: Mazama, WA

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74090Post mntlover
Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:04 pm

I like the idea of crossing with mosses! (Especially as I am already getting set up for that.)
Am I correct in remembering that there was a moss rose that had Lemon fragrance? Or was it a different rose by Ralph Moore?
I can't remember the details.
Does anyone know if that plan is usable for breeding purposes?
Duane

roseseek
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74091Post roseseek
Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:17 pm

Lemon Moss by Paul Barden had a pine-lemon scent and is believed extinct. https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.59974.1 Lemon Delight by Moore had a lemon scent, presumably to the moss. It's been too many years since I grew it or even saw it to remember. It appears gone unless you can pry it from someone's garden. https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l. ... 3782&tab=1 You may wish to begin collecting them from wherever you can find them before it's too late.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Plazbo
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 12:18 am

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74092Post Plazbo
Thu Mar 17, 2022 6:21 pm

mntlover wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:32 pm
Any thoughts specifically for the citrus smelling one? All of them have a sweet fragrance, but this one definitely smells different.
Is anyone aware of any rose that has this fragrance in its leaves that I could cross it with?
Allegedly. Juno. I've never had it, I keep putting it off (just space and only the one comment on HMF, never mentioned anywhere else and basically no one mentions the rose anywhere. add in once blooming, very double so who knows if there's fertility there....just a lot of if's unless there was more confirmation on that trait or I was to see it in person)
https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.1943&tab=32


No idea where it may be coming from with your seedling, too much of it's lineage is just unfamiliar to me (ie never came to Australia)

roseseek wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:17 pm
Lemon Moss by Paul Barden had a pine-lemon scent and is believed extinct.

May also be referring to Lemon Delight, but scents are subjective, I don't get lemon from it....something different than usual mosses but not lemon

sjyyjsygfly
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:46 pm

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74093Post sjyyjsygfly
Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:53 am

这两个亲本有可能遗传香味?我以为苔藓才有可能,吉普赛男孩后代可能和奥斯汀一样,会高温翻倍。
Are these two parents likely to inherit fragrance? I think moss is possible. The offspring of Gypsy boys may double the temperature like Austin.

dgermeys
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74094Post dgermeys
Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:42 pm

Interesting! I was wondering, do the glands have a red colour just like rosa rubiginosa? Or is there a difference? Are there a lot of glands at the backside of the leaves?

I wonder if someone has a list with roses that do have glands on their leaves. There might be more of them.

Also, there are some roses that have glands on the flowerbuds, before they open but not at the backside of their leaves.

Anyone who has observed these things? And on which roses?
Dane from Belgium

mntlover
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm
Location: Mazama, WA

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74132Post mntlover
Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:03 pm

Our snow just finished melting (mostly) with this warm spell and the buds are beginning to swell: I should be able to check on the leaves in the garden within the next month. That would be two more mature seedlings and I'll check Applejack as well. By then my seedlings in pots should be a bit bigger and I'll compare them all for glands.
What are those like that are closer to species, or even the species?
Duane

dgermeys
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74134Post dgermeys
Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:22 am

This picture shows the glands of rosa rubiginosa really well

Image
source: https://wilde-planten.nl/afbeeldingen/f ... lad4-g.jpg
Dane from Belgium

pacificjade
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74135Post pacificjade
Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:53 am

Cool photo!

Rosa primula foliage is green all the way through, with no noticeable glands. But the stems are wine red w/ slightly lighter wine red prickles.

Rosa primula is very aromatic without touching it or being near it, but the weather has to be a certain way for full expression.

Rosa glutinosa is green throughout as well. The stems are light greyish-fawn color. Nothing red in it.

dgermeys
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74136Post dgermeys
Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:59 am

rosa primula is within the section of pimpinellifolia, right? I have heard of spontaneous hybrids between rosa rubiginosa and rosa spinossima. it's scientific name is R. x biturigensis Boreau. A book in the Dutch language, "Wilde Rozen in het Zwin en de kustduinen" from Arnout Zwaenepoel describes this rose and there is also a picture of the leaves in the book. The picture clearly shows the glands simular to rosa rubiginosa, but maybe not so red in colour. Zwaenepoel says the leaves smell like apple.
Dane from Belgium

pacificjade
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74142Post pacificjade
Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:10 pm

The leaves smell like a smell I've only experienced through it. Its "heavy". Especially if its warm after a rain. Its intoxicatingly heavy from up to 20' away. At other times, completely scentless. Something happens with it that is not happening with the rough-foliage types of scented rose foliage.

I would have to go look at the genetic studies, but I vaguely recall (maybe incorrectly) that it is older like Rosa roxburghii is, but Rox is closest to Laev/Bract/Banks types, and primula is closest to the hugo/winged-thorned side of Pimp.

However, in a phylogenetic comparison, other relations appear. Roxburghii becomes more closely compared to both Rosa banksia and Rosa hugo/xanthina, and then Rosa primula by proxy. I knew there was a reason I was bringing this up. Unfortunately, I cannot find the 3rd study that has even more species studied in it.

The relationships aren't always as linear as we think they are. Phylogenically, Rosa spinosissima is closer to nutkana, fed., moyesii, and davidii.

As an unrelated side tangent, Rosa laxa is closely related to some rose named Rosa albertii, and as related to Roxa beggeriana as it is to macrophylla/pendulina/koreana.

Plazbo
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 12:18 am

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74143Post Plazbo
Wed Mar 30, 2022 11:13 pm

It may be an mislabel that's just become standard here in Australia, but R. pendulina has some foliage fragrance (similar in type to R. setipoda but not as strong). It's not something I've seen referenced anywhere else hence my possible mislabel thought. Anyone have pendulina able to comment?

mntlover
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm
Location: Mazama, WA

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74144Post mntlover
Thu Mar 31, 2022 12:25 pm

I was watering some potted seedlings yesterday that I had set out in the sun when I started smelling citrus: I narrowed the fragrance to a pot labeled Chinook Sunrise.
Has anyone noticed this fragrance from Chinook Sunrise's leaves? I thought this plant was a branch that rooted when I was trying to ripen hips late in the season, but perhaps it is a seedling from Chinook Sunrise instead, as I have several I had kept. Possible my plant Lady Emma Hamilton x Chinook Sunrise received its fragrant leaves form Chinook Sunrise? Anyone worked with it to see this result? I'll check it's leaves in the gardens sometime in April.
Duane

jAc123
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2021 1:46 pm

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74211Post jAc123
Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:58 pm

That's not something that I'm even closely familiar with, but I was wondering if there may be a gene(s) that allowes fragrance to be released, and that same fragrance being the one that you can smell if you "disturb" young shoots with your fingers.
If it worked that way, it could be (relatively) easier to select plants with a specific scent to their foliage

dgermeys
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74213Post dgermeys
Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:31 am

If we look at the work of Penzance, we can conclude that the gene in rosa rubiginosa for the glands as well as the gene(s) for the apple scent might be dominant.
Also, the moss glands are said to be a dominant charcteristic.
The problem is still, how to know which gene(s) are in play? :-)
Dane from Belgium

mntlover
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm
Location: Mazama, WA

Re: fragrant leaves

Post: # 74214Post mntlover
Fri Apr 08, 2022 9:41 am

I love the picture of the glands on that leaf: well done!
I'm looking forward to checking the leaves closely, as the the roses in the garden are just beginning to wake up now.
It would be great if something was dominant and these passed on fragrance. I love catching the aroma just after a rain, or when I am watering.
The apple fragrance I have smelled a few times. The citrus was new to me.
Duane

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