First year of hybridizing

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Bregingew
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 am

First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74057Post Bregingew
Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:06 pm

Hi y'all, I've introduced myself before, but im newer to the forum and this is the first year I am able to do any hybridization. Last year was more of a plant establishment year. I am currently practicing stratification with some open pollinated seeds and hope to get some to germination soon! I believe I have some woodsii seeds I harvested from the wild based on leaf and thorn shape, as well as cane color and growing habit. I'm hoping to get some germination from that to have for breeding next year. I really only have one question right now, but might have more in the future.

When is the best time to actually do the hybridization? I kind of thought during the first flush would be best, but im realizing not all of my roses are in sync. I do have some that look like they may bloom around the same time though. What are some of the strategies that have worked for you all?

Plazbo
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 12:18 am

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74058Post Plazbo
Fri Mar 11, 2022 12:10 am

Bregingew wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:06 pm
I believe I have some woodsii seeds I harvested from the wild based on leaf and thorn shape, as well as cane color and growing habit. I'm hoping to get some germination from that to have for breeding next year.
Probably year or two after next. Woodsii take a while to start flowering (was 2nd/3rd year for me).


As for the question. Probably not really too significant unless your in an extreme environment. Climate plays a part, folk in colder climates may need to do earlier to have enough of a season for the hips to ripen, while I (in Australia) have a growing season of 10 months and the only thing to consider is not loading up a plant with too many hips early in the season if it's a La Nina year (droughts and heat waves) as it's just a giant stressor to the plant or if its an El Nino year (so lots of rain, this year awful floods for a lot of the east coast) as can't really pollinate if every day is rainy for weeks on end so pollinate earlier (because it won't be very hot and droughty during mid summer).

mntlover
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm
Location: Mazama, WA

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74059Post mntlover
Fri Mar 11, 2022 9:30 am

In a shorter growing season here, so I must use first round of blooms so they have time to ripen. There are exceptions, like rugosa hybrids: Therese Bugnet took half the time to ripen, as has Wasagaming.
You could try saving pollen from earlier bloomers to use on later bloomers. Unfortunately, doesn't work the other way around this year, but you can save and freeze pollen for next year, that way you can make the crosses you think would be best.
Duane

Don
Posts: 1946
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74061Post Don
Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:43 am

In New England I pollinate from first bloom, around May 15, until about the Fourth of July. This give enough time for hips to ripen before the first frost. Generally speaking allow for about 105 days for that but it depends on the total hours of daylight and temperature other considerations being equal. Nor is 105 a magic number, it can take more or less time depending on what you crossed. 90 days might be enough, it might not.

Collect pollen, dry it and freeze it to have on hand when the blooms are ready. Freeze it this year for next year if you need to pollinate very early blooms.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Bregingew
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 am

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74097Post Bregingew
Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:03 pm

Thanks for the advice, this helps a lot! I collected some pollen already and its in the freezer while I wait for the rest of my roses to catch up and start blooming.
I also feel kinda sad about some rose choices I made. I started buying things last year before I did research and started looking on here and digging through conversations. I really wanted some dark reds to work with and I ended up getting ink spots and black baccarra, neither are fragrant and are rated sub par. I am kind of wishing I had gotten something better like oaklahoma or El toro. Any recommendations for dark healthy fragrant reds that I might be able to replace these with in the future? Or should I try my hat with these? Ink spots produces lots of seeds in massive hips. Tis very fertile.

Don
Posts: 1946
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74098Post Don
Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:35 pm

Architecture makes a lot of difference to the answer to your question. Your exemplars are classic HT's, is that what you are targeting or do you want something more for the garden than the exhibition table?

Classic HT's with densely pigmented red, scented blooms would be Chrysler Imperial, Papa Meilland, Mister Lincoln and, as you mentioned, Oklahoma. However these are mildew and black spot magnets depending on your environment. Kordes were working on disease resistance so might have something on offer that fits your bill, Heirloom carries them. Roses with Earthkind® validation would give a degree of confidence for health and vigor as would having Bill Radler, Ping Lim or David Zlesak as hybridizer. Suntory's Crimson Knight, Empress and Sunrosa Red are options. Though probably impossible now to source (Burlington or Rogue Valley Roses?), Paul Barden's Canniken and Castle Bravo are densely pigmented options but you can't be timid of thorns. Ralph Moore's 12-59-10 also comes to mind, would give size control and mossing as a bonus.

Henry Kuska offers up seeds from his breeding program from time to time on this forum. I have never grown roses that were more healthy, vigorous and densely pigment than some from his seeds. In particular, Hamburger Phoenix X William Baffin comes to mind as does a caveat that these will be big, big plants. For that matter, Hamburger Pheonix itself would be a good candidate for refinement. The one plant I kept for a long time from Henry's seeds had a good dose of yellow pigment deep in the bloom as a side benefit.
Last edited by Don on Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Bregingew
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 am

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74099Post Bregingew
Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:57 pm

In this case, I like the hybrid tea look, but I have a lot of varying goals. I would like my dark roses to have the hybrid tea form. The qualities most important to me are fragrance and disease resistance. I live in south carolina, so avoiding black spot prone plants would be best.

I'll have to meet or get introduced to Henry kuska. It sounds like I might enjoy some of his seeds!

mwesson
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:37 pm
Location: Zone 9 MS Coast

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74100Post mwesson
Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:39 pm

Welcome! I believe Dr. Kuska relocated a few years ago and severely downsized his garden. If I recall correctly he did keep a limited number of his favorite plants but I'm not sure he's actively breeding any longer. He shared plants and seeds with a great many of our members, so there may still be some of his available. I grew a few myself at one time, but I no longer have any of them.

Mark

mntlover
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm
Location: Mazama, WA

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74118Post mntlover
Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:28 pm

Dark Desire is an incredibly fragrant red rose from Kordes. Mine set a couple of hips last season (its first).
It is at least more disease resistant than others and could be profitable.
Duane

Bregingew
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 am

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74124Post Bregingew
Sun Mar 27, 2022 9:27 am

I looked at dark desire and I think it would probably work well! I appreciate the recommendation. The fragrance sounds like its very different/unique. I think I would replace black bacarra with that one. I may keep ink spots because I like the vigor and it's pretty disease resistant as well. I may be able to play around with it to make a better rose.

Bregingew
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 am

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74137Post Bregingew
Wed Mar 30, 2022 1:29 pm

Also, this may be a strange request, but would it be possible to get some pollen from a woodsii and/or a pulverulenta from someone on here if I wanted to do some test crosses?

roseseek
Posts: 5396
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74141Post roseseek
Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:04 pm

Bregingew, you should state what county you live in when requesting pollen, seeds, etc. Exporting pollen overseas is a royal pain and impossible to some countries. If it's within the US, that's another story.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Bregingew
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 am

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74145Post Bregingew
Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:55 pm

Thats good to know! I'm in the US. I'm in south carolina, zone 8b.

-Brennan

mntlover
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm
Location: Mazama, WA

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74149Post mntlover
Fri Apr 01, 2022 12:38 pm

I've got it growing out by our driveway; it's all over the place here.
I have some pollen ( I believe) in the freezer if you would need it before the time it blooms here. I'd half to look back at pictures last year, but seems early at the beginning of June, perhaps.
Duane

Bregingew
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 am

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74157Post Bregingew
Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:41 am

I would really appreciate the pollen, I want to pollinate some of my mosses with it, im unsure when they will bloom though. They just came out of dormancy recently, so I can imagine that they may be blooming in June.

Bregingew
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 am

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74380Post Bregingew
Sun May 08, 2022 1:10 pm

I have my first germination! Its an open pollinated double knockout seedling. It was part of my practice batch to see if I can germinate things successfully. Its cute and small. I am not sure if it's a selfing since nearly no hips form on the dkos. I've put some diploid pollen on the dko this year and it seems to take very well. If it is a cross, the only roses in bloom in my yard at the same time were spice (being closest in vicinity), ink spots, and state of grace. I guess we will see what happens 😬
Attachments
Double knock out OP baby
Double knock out OP baby

mntlover
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm
Location: Mazama, WA

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74403Post mntlover
Thu May 12, 2022 1:53 pm

Congrats on the germination, a most important step!!!
Hopefully you will soon have your crosses germinating just like that.
Duane

pacificjade
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74404Post pacificjade
Thu May 12, 2022 6:12 pm

Your OP, if self, could lead to any ploidy. If its a self, it could have interesting results.

paul.barden
Posts: 32
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:20 am

Re: First year of hybridizing

Post: # 74418Post paul.barden
Mon May 16, 2022 8:04 pm

I have a specimen of what I believe is R. woodsii, collected from the Tobermorey Peninsula in Ontario, about 25 years ago. I will have blooms on it soon.

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