Types of repeat-flowering in roses

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MidAtlas
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73722Post MidAtlas
Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:14 pm

'Stanwell Perpetual' can be nearly continuous in its flowering, but it varies by clone/rootstock/growing conditions; it is sometimes mocked in the U.S. as "Stanwell Eventual" for this reason, but some plants really do bloom very frequently and over a long season. If the authors detected RoKSN-copia in it, though, there's something either very wrong or very strange going on--maybe the rose tested was badly misidentified, or something else is afoot, but this is one reason why it's so important for there to be herbarium vouchers prepared from the plant materials that are used in studies. 'Stanwell Perpetual' is a cultivar that was introduced in 1821 from a long-presumed cross between R. spinosissima and 'Autumn Damask'. The timing and order of events that would be required in order for it to have contained RoKSN-copia at that time just don't add up well. The earliest Noisette roses ('Champneys' Pink Cluster' and 'Blush Noisette', both diploids) were introduced in 1811 and 1814, respectively, but Rosa x borboniana was not introduced until 1820, too late to have been the parent of 'Stanwell Perpetual', and early hybrid Chinas came into being no earlier. It's difficult to imagine a plausible scenario in which 'Stanwell Perpetual' has RoKSN-copia if any of the literature is correct, unless perhaps it had a Noisette parent, which would be pretty shocking.

Stefan

KarelBvn
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73783Post KarelBvn
Wed Jan 19, 2022 1:58 pm

You have a strong point there. It is indeed from about 1830 on hybridisations with China roses really became more popular. I think you are correct. Maybe they have made a mistake. On the other hand 'Stanwell Perpetual' is rather unique, as there are not many registered perpetual Hybrid Spinnosisimas from the early 19th century.
I've found Estelle (https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.58385) which would be a Portland x H. spin.
The breeder 'Lee' did some early work with China's as well: https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.65715
There is a very slight chance that there would be China in its make up. But meager. You're probably right. :)
Karel

pacificjade
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73786Post pacificjade
Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:51 am

Funny thing about the Noisettes. When I was giving HMF some patent info about a year ago, they updated this interesting critter:

https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.85999.1

Top commercial grower using Blush Noisette for a 2019 intro! Its still ticking...

I have often wondered if the Rosa moschata used in the noisettes had some bs race resistance. It seems as if some of the teas (like Safrano) descending from it could have passed such a thing down, but it could also have entirely been via Rosa wichurana later on.

MidAtlas
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73799Post MidAtlas
Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:07 pm

That's an interesting cross. I wonder what the intention was; it's a bit sad to read that it has no fragrance.

I wouldn't guess that the R. moschata used in the breeding of Noisettes is any different from what we have today--I haven't detected evidence of multiple independent introductions of that species, at least not in the U.S., and the clones that are commonly found in cultivation with different numbers of petals seem likely to have arisen as sports. R. moschata is definitely not disease-free here, although the foliage takes a little while to become diseased and the plant usually overgrows diseased parts well. Frequent cane borer attacks are a much more serious threat to its long-term success in my area. 'Blush Noisette' seems to be a survivor, not that it doesn't lose lower (and middle) foliage to black spot. I have one that ended up deep under the canopy of a much more massive rose and vine tangle, and I thought it was a goner until I noticed a cluster of its flowers poking up above the tangle. It had sent a 9-foot shoot straight up in order to escape from its dark prison. It seems to be healthier here than its parent 'Champneys' Pink Cluster'. Neither variety is as healthy as 'Safrano', though ('Safrano' is one of the healthiest teas, and one of the healthiest reblooming roses, that I know of.) Cane borers are much less of a problem with teas and Chinas, and Noisettes seem to be less affected by borers than R. moschata.

Karl K
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73800Post Karl K
Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:21 pm

I wouldn't worry too much about hand-pollination. Scotch roses flower very early (before dawn, according to Heslop-Harrison (1921), and have plenty of pollen left over so early insects can spread it around the garden.

William Paul (1848)
According to the statements of M. Boitard, there is scarcely any limit to the variation of Roses produced from seed. He affirms that M. Noisette, a French cultivator, has never sown seeds of the Chinese Roses (R. INDICA) without raising some Scotch Roses (R. SPINOSISSIMA) from them. He states, This fact is not supported by a solitary occurrence, but has been frequently observed by that cultivator, and is further attested by the evidence of M. Laffay, who has raised seedlings on an extensive scale, and has this year between 200,000 and 300,000.

Thomas Rivers (1843)
About four years since, in a pan of seedling Moss Roses, was one with a most peculiar habit, even when very young; this has since proved a hybrid rose, partaking much more of the Scotch Rose than of any other, and till the plant arrived at full growth I thought it a Scotch Rose, the seed of which had by accident been mixed with that of the Moss Rose, although I had taken extreme care: to my surprise it has since proved a perfect hybrid, having the sepals and the fruit of the Provence Rose, with the spiny and dwarf habit of the Scotch Rose; it bears abundance of hips, which are all abortive. The difference in the fruit of the Moss and Provence Roses and that of the Scotch is very remarkable, and this it was which drew my particular attention to the plant in question; it was raised from the same seed, and in the same seed-pan, as the Single Crimson Moss Rose: as this strange hybrid came from a Moss Rose accidentally fertilised, we may expect that art will do much more for us.

BTW: The Bristol Nursery catalog for 1826 listed both † perpetual Scotch and Lee's Perpetual.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Ehret/Bri ... s1826.html

Furthermore, 'Ormiston Roy' reportedly gives some late bloom with no obvious outside influence: Just Rosa foetida and some unnamed Scotch roses.

pacificjade
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73805Post pacificjade
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:56 am

re: Rosa moschata. I think it was Race 9 that I thought the variant used in the Noisettes was plausible. Then again, Park's Yellow, mulitflora variants, etc. could be responsible. I know it wasn't Old Blush.

MidAtlas
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73807Post MidAtlas
Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:28 pm

There is a 2019 reference listed at HelpMeFind.com (the most recent one, for the moment) indicating that DNA testing has confirmed 'Autumn Damask' as a direct parent of 'Stanwell Perpetual'. If that is true, and if RoKSN-copia is somehow present in 'Stanwell Perpetual', it would have needed to be present already in the other parent (unless it appeared spontaneously, or is lurking in 'Autumn Damask'!). That would presumably be some fertile R. spinosissima hybrid with a Noisette, China, or tea. However, this would mean that 'Stanwell Perpetual' only has R. spinosissima as a grandparent. This seems like a bit of a stretch to me, but hopefully there will be more studies done if questions about its background persist. It would be interesting to read exactly what Pascal Heitzler has written, and whether that study went beyond just proving the 'Autumn Damask' parentage.

In the Bristol Nursery catalog, 'Lee's Perpetual' isn't marked as a double Scotch rose in the way that "perpetual Scotch" is, so maybe their 'Lee's Perpetual' is something else entirely.

It seems to me that R. spinosissima and some of its close derivatives do not always block repeat bloom from other roses when crossed with them, a characteristic that might be shared with R. foetida as well.

While I couldn't say one way or another what R. moschata might have contributed to its offspring in terms of race-specific black spot resistance, I do think it likely that we have the same clone today that was used in the original breeding of 'Champneys' Pink Cluster', so it should at least be possible to test any theories about that.

Plazbo
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73808Post Plazbo
Sun Jan 23, 2022 7:28 pm

MidAtlas wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:28 pm
If that is true, and if RoKSN-copia is somehow present in 'Stanwell Perpetual', it would have needed to be present already in the other parent (unless it appeared spontaneously, or is lurking in 'Autumn Damask'!).
Potentially....but you have to go on a bit of journey to it.

Of the roses tested in that copia study if we look at Roi des Pourpres, it has a copy. It's a sport of Rose Du Roi.

If it's lineage is accurate, it's Autumn Damask cross to gallica officinalis to give The Portland Rose and then crossed to gallica officinalis again to give Rose Du Roi.....gallica officinalis wouldn't have a copia.

Granted it's all a bit prone to error given how it relies entirely on assumptions.


The thing that stands out to me with stanwell perpetual is how it's foliage size is still fairly small. I've had my first spino seedlings germinate last year and the leaflets seem prone to getting 3x the size when crossed with a lot of things of a more typical sized foliage.

MidAtlas
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73810Post MidAtlas
Sun Jan 23, 2022 8:04 pm

That's definitely not an example I would rely upon to clarify the movement of the copia allele without first being absolutely certain of the material and its ID! The name 'Rose du Roi à Fleurs Pourpres' has been used widely for at least two very different roses, one of them clearly quite modern in its makeup (which would clearly possess RoKSN-copia), and nothing like the true 'Rose du Roi'. That is another rose that should have been vouchered as part of the study, although they should all have been vouchered.

MidAtlas
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73811Post MidAtlas
Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:53 am

It's not quite a smoking gun, but many of the photos that were posted to HelpMeFind.com by AmiRoses (Etienne Bouret) early on were taken in Roseraie de l'Haÿ (Roseraie du Val-de-Marne), which happens to be the source of the clone of 'Roi des Pourpres' used in the study. The photos of 'Rose du Roi à Fleurs Pourpres' credited to AmiRoses do seem to illustrate a clone that is atypical of the 'Rose du Roi' sport, but typical of the more modern (by which I only mean China/tea-enriched) hybrid: https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l ... &qn=6&qc=0

Karl K
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73813Post Karl K
Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:31 pm

MidAtlas wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:28 pm
In the Bristol Nursery catalog, 'Lee's Perpetual' isn't marked as a double Scotch rose in the way that "perpetual Scotch" is, so maybe their 'Lee's Perpetual' is something else entirely.
You may be right. However, the plant I know as 'Stanwell's Perpetual' is a sprawling plant that would be very out of place among the double Scotch roses.
While I couldn't say one way or another what R. moschata might have contributed to its offspring in terms of race-specific black spot resistance, I do think it likely that we have the same clone today that was used in the original breeding of 'Champneys' Pink Cluster', so it should at least be possible to test any theories about that.
I do get hung up on details when it comes to identifying plants.
Gerard (1597): "... long leaves, smooth and shining, made up of leaves set upon a middle rib, like the other Roses."
Parkinson (1629): "... having small darke greene leaves on them, not much bigger then the leaves of Eglantine: "
Hanmer (1659): "... the leaves are long and shining greene."
Rea (1665): "... dark green shining leaves"
Mortimer (1708): "dark green shining Leaves"
Miller (1724): "... shining dark green Leaves"
Herrmann (1762): "Leaves ... dark-green, bright, smooth"

But in 1848, William Paul had a slightly different take: "The leaves are naked above, glaucous beneath, made up of five or seven unpolished ovate lanceolate leaflets."
The plant I know as Rosa moschata (Heritage Rose Garden, San Jose) fits Paul's description better because the leaves are not "shining". Unless we can reconcile "shining" and "unpolished".

I should add that Roy Shepherd (History of the Rose) offered his opinion:
We may assume that the pollen parent of Champneys' Pink Cluster was R. moschata, as it is described as being the "smooth and shining leaved musk cluster rose."
I don't know where Shepherd learned that this shining leaved Musk rose was the pollen parent of Champneys' Pink Cluster.

And one more bit of info, from Graham Thomas (1978): "Just how much seedlings can vary I found out when Dr. A. I. Janaki-Ammal sent me seed of wild Musk roses growing in parts of Nepal. The progeny ranged in foliage from glossy deep green to blue-grey and downy with an attractive purple flush below. Flower and truss size also varied from plant to plant."

Karl K
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73814Post Karl K
Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:28 pm

MidAtlas wrote:
Sun Jan 23, 2022 2:28 pm
It seems to me that R. spinosissima and some of its close derivatives do not always block repeat bloom from other roses when crossed with them, a characteristic that might be shared with R. foetida as well.
Here's a supporting case: 'Golden Wings' reblooms freely, as I've seen in Kansas and California. Its recorded parentage [Soeur Thérèse x (R. spinosissima altaica x Ormiston Roy)] allows us to wonder. 'Ormiston Roy' reportedly gives some occasional late bloom, but there is no report or indication of China rose ancestry in its lineage.

pacificjade
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73815Post pacificjade
Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:13 pm

I grew Golden Wings for over a decade. It had bizarre architecture. Almost like a 12' grandiflora with some extra width. I loved that rose, but I loathed pruning it. Anyway, as to the subject at hand. It was not just a repeat bloomer with decided intervals. It was perpetual. While it made decided candelabras, it also employed opportunistic blooms among the candelabras as they and after they finished.

Wouldnt recommend it for breeding though... Austin made some more modern versions, and I wouldnt recommend those either. But Jude the Obscure, which is 2 generations down the road, made nice seedlings. It even produced silvery mauve when crossed with purple types, which was amusing.

roseseek
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73816Post roseseek
Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:16 pm

How interesting, Michael. Here, Golden Wings never exceeded four feet (own root) and it flowered continuously. But, as with all Spins and many Damask types, it was plagued with "stem crud" by mid summer and looked horrible. I loved it in spring to early summer, but after that, ew.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

pacificjade
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73817Post pacificjade
Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:01 pm

My clone was from Heirlooms back when you could get a tree sapling contain of a rose for only $13.95! *cries inconsolably lol* I didn't water it, and I only gave it generic fertilizer each spring, so it was legitimately ignored from care. It may simply been a case of liking our heavy clay. But, yeah, perpetual blooming under those circumstances.

Despite such amount of Persian genetic influence, it thrived quite well through our very wet winters. It did get some minor blight that never seemed to damage the canes. Just tannish discoloration. Nothing like the ridiculous amount of winter canker Knock Out gets here. Holy moly. Knock Out was interesting to use in breeding, because it quickly taught me which roses actively bred out stem canker, and some of them were quite surprising (Geoff Hamilton, for example, but thats for another thread some other day...).

MidAtlas
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73818Post MidAtlas
Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:05 am

I probably wouldn't want to use Golden Wings now, either, but I wish that I could grow Jude the Obscure better here. I love the flowers, but the plant is just too black spot prone. It might be worth another shot just to cross it with healthier varieties. There are many first-generation offspring of 'Persian Yellow', R. foetida, and R. foetida 'Bicolor' that also repeat bloom at least modestly, and I've mentioned before that I had seedlings of 'Harison's Yellow' crossed with repeat blooming roses that were completely remontant.

Karl, I remember much of that from the earlier "Alternate source of repeat bloom" discussion, but there is no confusion about the ID of R. moschata in its modern scientific usage. Regardless of any earlier use of "musk rose" and "Rosa moschata" for other species, the name is considered to have been stabilized in 1762 when Johannes Herrmann published the name with its first valid description. The R. moschata that we recognize today agrees well with that description.

DNA tests performed at Florida Southern College confirmed that 'Champneys' Pink Cluster' originated from a cross between R. moschata and 'Old Blush'; the R. moschata clone used in that study was the "Elmwood single" form that was collected from a southern U.S. cemetery: https://journals.flvc.org/fshs/article/ ... 6433/83349

Further, the Florida Southern College team had tested various clones of R. moschata (including the "Elmwood single") and found all but one, which also did not look like the others, to be nearly identical: https://journals.flvc.org/fshs/article/ ... 32/83348/0

Since R. moschata isn't a naturally occurring or naturalized taxon in Nepal, I would have to guess that what Graham Thomas received as seed was actually R. brunonii, which exhibits exactly the sort of natural variation that he mentioned. Even Thomas knew very well that R. brunonii is native there, and R. moschata isn't!

pacificjade
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73819Post pacificjade
Tue Jan 25, 2022 10:41 am

Speaking of synstylae types, Rosa sempervirens also exhibits some of these strange repeat habits quite early on in breeding or mutation.

Karl K
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73820Post Karl K
Tue Jan 25, 2022 1:24 pm

Years ago I had R. wichuraiana var poteriifolia. While I wasn't looking, the darned thing sent its wiry canes, snaking through the zoysia. They were so close to the ground that I was mowing over them without noticing. Then I set the pot on a low wall. Whenever I got near it, it managed to reach out and snag me. Finally, I cut it back so far it couldn't reach me. It promptly opened a few flowers ... in mid December.

I have seen similar behavior in other Wich. hybrids that are willing to open some out-of-season blooms when pruned a little. And one of these hybrids at the Heritage Rose Garden, San Jose, CA, seems always to have open blooms to entice me. It is labeled 'François Foucard', but seems to have too many petals for that variety. Whatever it is, it's fragrance is delicious.
Image

roseseek
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73821Post roseseek
Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:22 pm

Poterifolia is VERY sneaky and LOVES drawing blood. It didn't repeat, but it did look for other pollens. I raised this from it. https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l. ... 5264&tab=1 I wish I still had it.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Karl K
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Re: Types of repeat-flowering in roses

Post: # 73822Post Karl K
Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:27 pm

MidAtlas wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 12:05 am
Karl, I remember much of that from the earlier "Alternate source of repeat bloom" discussion, but there is no confusion about the ID of R. moschata in its modern scientific usage. Regardless of any earlier use of "musk rose" and "Rosa moschata" for other species, the name is considered to have been stabilized in 1762 when Johannes Herrmann published the name with its first valid description. The R. moschata that we recognize today agrees well with that description.

DNA tests performed at Florida Southern College confirmed that 'Champneys' Pink Cluster' originated from a cross between R. moschata and 'Old Blush'; the R. moschata clone used in that study was the "Elmwood single" form that was collected from a southern U.S. cemetery: https://journals.flvc.org/fshs/article/ ... 6433/83349

Further, the Florida Southern College team had tested various clones of R. moschata (including the "Elmwood single") and found all but one, which also did not look like the others, to be nearly identical: https://journals.flvc.org/fshs/article/ ... 32/83348/0

Since R. moschata isn't a naturally occurring or naturalized taxon in Nepal, I would have to guess that what Graham Thomas received as seed was actually R. brunonii, which exhibits exactly the sort of natural variation that he mentioned. Even Thomas knew very well that R. brunonii is native there, and R. moschata isn't!
Starting at the bottom, I quoted Thomas only to suggest that what we call Rosa moschata may have had more genetic diversity in the past than it does now. For example, Richard Bradley (1728) described "ROSA alba muscata sine spinis, &c.", bearing a truly impressive bunch of flowers. "I having seen one Truss or Cluster of Flowers of this Sort at Mr Topham's, at Windsor, which had above a thousand Buds upon it, as I computed, by counting those upon one of its Sprigs, which had seventy seven Buds; the Cluster had above twenty Sprigs of flower Buds, which were very distinct, and I believe amounted to more than I mention." This variety flowered from July to the end of November.

In the olden days, plants were often shipped as seeds, rather than as cuttings. Some genetic diversity gets lost with each generation. I recall an odd statement by C. C. Hurst to the effect that American Rosa species seem to have less variation then their European relatives. American botanists would disagree, of course. I venture to guess that many of the American species he examined were more than a few generations removed from the original importations. I do have a statement from Philip Miller (1740) on the subject: "These three Sorts of Roses grow wild in the Woods of North America, from whence their Seeds have been sent to England, and great Numbers of the Plants have been raised. "
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Ehret/Mil ... s1740.html

Furthermore, some years ago I decided to look into the trial of Robert Sweet back in the early 19th century. It looks like someone (William Aiton?) tried to frame Sweet for treason because an anonymous writer commented on "the dunces at Kew" (Aiton was one). That's just background. The relevant bit is that Coville's Nursery routinely received shipping boxes filled with plants, but with no information on the identity of the plants, where they originated, or who sent them. Thousands of plants were received in that way, at this one nursery.

The popular books allow us to suppose that Lord and Lady Hume receiving a rose from a relative in China was something special. Their Tea-scented rose was nursed back to health at Coville's, where Sweet spent his days busily unpacking plants, repotting them and finding room in the nursery for their recoveries. Thousands of plants!

My point, here, is that the Musk rose with the unpolished leaves described by William Paul might have been a later introduction that displaced the form(s) with "shining" leaves. Was Paul's Musk rose the same as Thomas's

BTW, I had another look at Herrmann's description. It was based solely on the double-flowered form. I'm sure some people will be happy to assume that the double and the single must be of the same genotype, except for the "gene for doubling". I will only mention that Bradley (1728) suggested that the single was more vigorous. He also mentioned that the single and the double Musk roses (not including the spineless one he discussed separately) had, "small dark-green Leaves on them, not much bigger then the Leaves of Eglantine."

It's been a long time since I visited the Heritage Rose Garden, but I seem to recall that Eglantine leaves are distinctly smaller than the Musk leaves.
[All those years wandering around that garden, I never thought to carry a little ruler to give scale to my pictures.]

As for DNA evidence, it wasn't so very long ago (2000) that DNA scientists assured us the Damask rose had three parents, and that no one in the past couple thousand years ever tried to raise them from seed. DNA says! No genetic diversity. But then Babaei et al. (2007) found "Multiple Damask Genotypes in Iran," and Karami (2012) discussed "Essential oils in 9 Damask genotypes."

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