Victorian Memory question

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mntlover
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72878Post mntlover
Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:59 pm

I just purchased Victorian Memory (Isabella Skinner) to use for cold hardiness.
But in looking at it's parentage I have several questions come to mind:
How did it manage to retain such cold hardiness if crossed with a tea and then a floribunda? And how cold can it go before having dieback on the canes?
How did it end up being a climber? Hybrid vigor?
Has anyone tried repeating this with different floribunda? Or tea? Or something else?
Has anyone used Victorian Memory?
Thank you for any thoughts!
Duane

rikuhelin1
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72880Post rikuhelin1
Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:55 am

Great questions ... l have no botanical or genetic answers except my gripe somewhere in history commercial hybridizing veered off in the wrong direction from where the ancients were heading for my wee garden’s small market, hardiness needs, variety needs and repeating climber intrinsc needs ... been resorting to incantations and immaculate concepts like Kordes got RK for hope, and guidance in my efforts.
Riku

Don
Posts: 1901
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72882Post Don
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:27 pm

You can only really be sure it has laxa ancestry, the other parts on record are pretty surely conjecture even by Skinner himself. He and his contemporaries played a lot of guessing games with their recorded ancestries.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

rikuhelin1
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72883Post rikuhelin1
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:52 am

I had my Isabelle Skinner’s for only a 2-5 years and have had no hardiness issues and use no protection in a sheltered spot. One is a clone from original and the only taker from 23 cuttings of the original donated to me. This effort means original had to regrow so remains small to date from 4 feet in year 3.

Though not a true test of hardiness l chose a sheltered spot as it is impossible for now to get in retail in Canada (how typical) ... though a Canadian nursery has a number baking in the oven BUT not ready ... rumoured to come from Dr FL Skinner’s descendent and other sources.

No hardiness issue in sheltered spot and no disease so far in my climate though been told susceptible to Bs.

The original has bloomed and tried crossing first blooms ... with Gertie but no success but l don’t consider it a disciplined effort.

Will return to it once it reaches a more robust state after failed cutting efforts ( basically harvested the heck out of it out of necessity).

And it is a repeating climber to my eyes ... still trying to acquire R. laxa ( Turkestan ir Siberian - dont care which).

Another one to look at is Red Dawn x Suzanne from Alberta’s Simonet’s work - shrub rose hardy extrodinare, if you can find it in States. Been cloning this rose every year for personal stock.

Apparently E0(zero) 5 is a cross of it and R. Kordessi, and from my early spring examination of it at a prairie heritage garden 10 years ago the cross appeared to have some hardiness.
Riku

rikuhelin1
Posts: 319
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72884Post rikuhelin1
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:08 am

Should mention that if it was Red Dawn (his own cross) Simonet used with Suzanne then he had an immaculate concept because all my protected Red Dawns did not survive winter.

So l would not sweat crossing rock hardy (starting to call trait Rick hardy as opposed to Tom criteria) with tenders unless time is at a premium ... seems sometimes in a blue moon someone get a great hardy win for my garden.
Riku

mntlover
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72885Post mntlover
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:08 pm

So I am wondering, is that what people do, get enough seedlings to look for the rare exception? In this instance, you expect an average between the two parents cold hardiness, but sometimes get a seedling to the cold hardy end, just like I'm sure there are some that don't seem to increase in cold hardiness.
But how do people deal with the longer term testing of larger numbers in order to find this out? Is there a shortcut I should know?
Thanks for the input!
Duane

Don
Posts: 1901
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72886Post Don
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:48 pm

Different breeders have different philosophies.

The brute force approach you ask about is a numbers game that non-institutional breeders cannot really play much less win at because of the sheer scale involved. Kordes is a good example of this, their seedling numbers are in the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions by now as the law of diminishing returns prevails.

'Little guys' like Jim Sproul, on the other hand, often take a more systematic, targeted approach where they are attempting incremental improvements, in his case a bigger better blotch on a bigger better healthier canvas.

Sole proprietors with indirect institutional support can really make progress such as with Bill Radler. It's hard to know how much it helped that he ran a famous botanical garden but I suspect it positioned him to build the type of breeding program that allowed him to doggedly pursue health over all other traits.

Smarts and experience counts for a lot. Herb Swim had direct institutional support yet he worked with relatively small numbers to define and refine the classic modern hybrid tea. Verona Weeks, wife of Herb Swim's sometime partner Ollie Weeks, told me that Herb Swim was a genius at rose breeding.

One thing does stand out to me, though. Every truly successful rose hybridizer was tied at the hip to a production nursery.

My advice is to pick a single realistic objective and stick to it. Measure progress in baby steps, not leaps and bounds. Learn everything you can about growing and breeding plants while keeping an eye out for the occasional outlier. La chance ne sourit qu'aux esprits bien préparés.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

mntlover
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72889Post mntlover
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:03 pm

Don, thanks for the advice!
I am planning on baby steps (when they can actually be achieved). So I am working several lines at once, all with the same goal.
Reason one is to test each and see what is feasible.
Reason two is that I fully expect, with baby steps, to take multiple generations to reach my first goal. This will, I think 🤔, require multiple different options for the next several generations.
Whether each (or any) of these options pans out remains to be seen.
Very interesting your mention of connection to a nursery!
Could you elaborate on the benefits of that? I think I see some, but figure there are others I might be missing.
Thanks again!
Duane

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