Question about crosses with once bloomers

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Giessen
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:32 pm
Location: Austria

Question about crosses with once bloomers

Post: # 72812Post Giessen
Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:50 pm

Hello everyone,
I made some crosses of perpetual blooming shrubs with once blooming gallicas, and now I have some seedlings. So, I expect to get once-bloomers in the F1 generation from these crosses. According to my experince, once blooming roses do not bloom as seedlings in their first year. Could there be any exceptions? Apart from the fact, that the gallicas I use may be bengal/gallica hybrids and may have a hidden rebloom feature?
It is always so, that the true once bloomers must not bloom in their first year?

roseseek
Posts: 5260
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Question about crosses with once bloomers

Post: # 72813Post roseseek
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:02 pm

Are you sure of the ploidy of the mates you've chosen? It's entirely possible you may have some fertile triploids in there which may result in some remontant seedlings. There is a LOT we don't know and can't be sure of until we encounter it.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Giessen
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:32 pm
Location: Austria

Re: Question about crosses with once bloomers

Post: # 72814Post Giessen
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:11 pm

Well, I am quite sure that the recurrent blooming seed parent I used was a tetraploid. I can’t say much about gallica I used for that cross. But now it seems like I have buds in one seedling from this cross. Since I prepare seed parent very early, it must be highly unlikely that it was self-pollination (of course, I cannot exclude it entierly).

roseseek
Posts: 5260
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Question about crosses with once bloomers

Post: # 72815Post roseseek
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:21 pm

I raised Sequoia Ruby X Tuscany Superb seedlings which were once-flowering. I've raised miniature X species which ran from once-flowering to fully repeat flowering, with all of them showing signs of hybridity and selfs of the repeaters showing definite signs. We can theorize all we want, but as Ralph Moore loves saying, "the rose will find the way". "Stuff" happens.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Giessen
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:32 pm
Location: Austria

Re: Question about crosses with once bloomers

Post: # 72816Post Giessen
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:28 pm

Thank you Kim, for your information. Interesting!

roseseek
Posts: 5260
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Question about crosses with once bloomers

Post: # 72817Post roseseek
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:30 pm

You're welcome! I hope your seedlings hold some intriguing mysteries for you!
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

david zlesak
Posts: 455
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:27 pm

Re: Question about crosses with once bloomers

Post: # 72818Post david zlesak
Wed Mar 10, 2021 3:31 pm

This may not reflect exactly what you'll find with your specific crosses, but Dr. Mitchell's crosses with 'Alika' may be of interest.
http://www.globalsciencebooks.info/Onli ... 46-52o.pdf

Giessen
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:32 pm
Location: Austria

Re: Question about crosses with once bloomers

Post: # 72819Post Giessen
Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:39 pm

Thank you David, interesting paper. So, they study juvenile recurrence in R2, and not in F1, which clearly suggests that in F1 there should not be any. Which strongly suggests that my seedling must have been a result of self-pollination.... however! it looks quite different from its seed parent. Maybe my pollen donor was not a true gallica? Hell, I do not know.
It is interesting also to know that this juvenile recurrence must be a separate feature, though it must be linked to the main recurrence (if I understand it correctly).
And it is indeed true that during meiosis, a preferential pairing can be seen. That would explain this high variability between numbers of recurrence gaining of R2 seedlings among different crosses.
There was a recent paper from japanese authors which claims to find an intact RoKSN gene in re-blooming rugosas, so indeed there is an overlap in the mechanism of the recurrence, like Svejda suggested. I do not know if one can call it another example of genetic redundancy, but it is anyway very exciting.

rugosa
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:56 am

Re: Question about crosses with once bloomers

Post: # 72820Post rugosa
Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:46 am

In 2018, I pollinated R. Gallica Splendens ( https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.18591) with Above and Beyond pollen. The seeds germinated in May 2019. In the summer of 2020, one of the offspring made the first flowers 14 months after germination, which is surprising when the seed parent is once flowering. Usually the first flowers come 3-5 years after germination, when one of the parents of the cross is once flowering. The coming years will tell whether the offspring will bloom once or repeatedly.
https://rosebreeders.org/forum/viewtopi ... =2&t=56563

Hannu
Attachments
Splendens x Above and Beyond_ (2).jpg

angelbabie
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:29 pm

Re: Question about crosses with once bloomers

Post: # 72822Post angelbabie
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:03 pm

Thank for your information. Interesting!

Giessen
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:32 pm
Location: Austria

Re: Question about crosses with once bloomers

Post: # 72823Post Giessen
Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:07 pm

Thank you, Hannu.
You rose is gorgeous and has an exciting pedigree.

mntlover
Posts: 308
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Re: Question about crosses with once bloomers

Post: # 72829Post mntlover
Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:23 pm

Beautiful rose, and I love the cross!
Duane

rugosa
Posts: 26
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 7:56 am

Re: Question about crosses with once bloomers

Post: # 72830Post rugosa
Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:07 am

Thank you Giessen and Duane. The rose is under surveillance and I hope it is also disease resistant and winter hardy. I also have a few siblings from the same cross that have not yet bloomed.

Karl K
Posts: 1383
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:49 pm

Re: Question about crosses with once bloomers

Post: # 72842Post Karl K
Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:54 pm

Inheritance of blooming habit can be puzzling.

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... r1907.html
A number of cross-bred seedlings, grown from Baby Rambler, are disappointing in that none turns out to be constant-blooming, though largely pollenized with ever-blooming kinds. All came near to the Crimson Rambler type, regardless of the habit of the pollen parent, and will probably develop into tall-climbing annual bloomers. When pollen of Baby Rambler, which has the continuous flowering Gloire des Polyanthes as one parent, is used on the stigmas of annual-blooming Ramblers of Wichuraiana hybrids, very dwarf ever-blooming plants result in large proportion, and something may perhaps be done to develop a useful group, of which Baby Rambler will likely remain the type.

Giessen
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:32 pm
Location: Austria

Re: Question about crosses with once bloomers

Post: # 72854Post Giessen
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:09 am

Thanks Karl. Very interesting!

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