A beginner's question

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minutifolia
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:09 am

A beginner's question

Post: # 72481Post minutifolia
Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:35 am

Hi all. I was looking at Cl. Le Vesuve on Helpmefind. What a beauty! Rogue Valley has it and the non-climbing original. When used in hybridizing, does the climbing sport characteristic affect the offspring raised from a cross using it? In other words, would it make a difference if I used the original or the climbing sport of this or other roses? For that matter, do the color sports of a variety affect the descendants of a cross? For example, HMF lists pollenated descendants of Radiance and Red Radiance. Was this (do you think) a function of the roses available to the breeder or would the differences between these roses affect the outcome of crosses with them? Thanks! -Brian

roseseek
Posts: 5245
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: A beginner's question

Post: # 72483Post roseseek
Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:12 pm

Many mutations are only "skin deep" and don't extend to the sexual level. There are exceptions and some of them are known. This one, unfortunately, isn't known...yet. It MAY influence the outcome of the crosses or it may not. You are likely going to have to try it and see. Ralph Moore had White Queen Elizabeth, a gamma radiation induced color sport of Queen Elizabeth Walter Lammerts created. He explored breeding with traditional Queen Elizabeth and White Queen Elizabeth. There were no remarkable differences between what he obtained from either. That doesn't mean you may not find other color sports which produce differing results, because, again, in some mutations the change only extends to the visible while others extend to the reproductive levels. I'm not aware of anyone having reported on any observations on using Le Vesuve or its sport.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

MidAtlas
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:49 pm

Re: A beginner's question

Post: # 72485Post MidAtlas
Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:56 pm

The "climbing" version that I have is indistinguishable to me from the "non-climbing" version; I've seen them planted in the same garden and they had identical habits of growth. I could only speculate about why that might be the case, but I wonder what differences you might actually expect to see in the RVR stock. It's a very healthy rose with what would seem to be excellent breeding potential, and it does produce hips, but I've never tried germinating the open-pollinated seeds before this year (just a few, as a test to see what comes of it). There are some interesting descendants listed on HelpMeFind.com, and I'm curious to know whether this variety's health made a significant difference in their own disease resistance.

Stefan

minutifolia
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:09 am

Re: A beginner's question

Post: # 72486Post minutifolia
Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:56 pm

Kim, thank you for your informative response...and the encouragement! Extremely interesting. Le Vesuve is definitely in my plans now.

Stefan, the possibility of some climbing sports being indistinguishable from the bush forms is also an interesting idea. I'm thinking of some of the comments about Lady Hillingdon and Cl LH being one and the same. And the lankier Austin roses are often described vaguely as climbing, seemingly due to climate or the mood of the writer (or both in my case; a dreary NW Pennsylvania winter and the eagerness to move to north San Diego county next summer...) Most of the climbing sports I have been around seem strikingly different from their original forms, with the flowering on secondary branches and, I think in many cases, limited repeat bloom. And, on the subject of some roses that really do have different forms, does anyone know if the monstrous, shed-eating clone of Cl Mlle. Cecile Brunner that Heirloom offers really does bloom as continually as its petite mild-mannered original form, or are all of the climbing Mlle. CB forms mostly once-blooming? Not that this is a bad thing, of course. (Did the rose overhear this? Heh heh. Naw, impossible. I hope.)

roseseek
Posts: 5245
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: A beginner's question

Post: # 72487Post roseseek
Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:21 pm

You're welcome! I can't wait to see your observations! I can't speak to Heirloom's specific climber's ability to rebloom, but there IS a fairly continuous flowering Cl Mlle Cecile Brunner. Clair Martin, former Curator of Roses at The Huntington Library, took us volunteers into "the hinterland" there and showed us a Cl Cecile Brunner that had grown there for decades. It had invaded the surrounding trees and formed a literal room you could walk in to. We propagated it and sold it at plant sales for years. I sent it to Sequoia, The Rose Room, Pixie Treasures, Vintage and everyone else I could think of to get it "out there" so it would be preserved. Personally, I see absolutely no reason why anyone would want the original cathedral eating once-flowering form (unless you have a cathedral you want to slip cover...) when there IS one which flowers spring through fall, and longer in more forgiving climates.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

minutifolia
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:09 am

Re: A beginner's question

Post: # 72492Post minutifolia
Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:03 pm

Thanks, Kim! This is wonderful news. Burling Leong just sent me her rose list (amazing!....and the list of minis is too!) and I notice it includes Cl. Cecile Brunner. She was a associate of the late Ralph Moore at Sequoia, so I am in hope that the clone she offers is derived from your work at the Huntington. I guess the smart thing to do would be for me to drop her a line. I'm having trouble finding the other outfits you mentioned, but Rogue Valley Roses lists it with "everblooming" included. Now that I know that this rose really exists I can hardly wait to sic it on something large and ugly that needs to be transformed into something beautiful.

roseseek
Posts: 5245
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: A beginner's question

Post: # 72493Post roseseek
Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:06 pm

You're welcome! You won't find the others I mentioned as they are all gone. Yes, definitely check with Burling about the rebloom of her Cl Cecile Brunner. I don't know what the provenance is of the one she sells. If you order from RVR, I sincerely hope you receive the rose you order.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

minutifolia
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:09 am

Re: A beginner's question

Post: # 72499Post minutifolia
Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:13 pm

Hi Kim! Burling sent me a kind response immediately. She said she didn't know if her Cl Cecile Brunner is the same clone you shared from Huntington. She reports that it has a spring bloom, with scattered bloom after. Hmm. Maybe I need to drop a line to Rogue Valley
Roses. I hope they have time to answer. I am sure these rare rose specialists have limited staff. I should contact Heirloom as well. If none of these places carries it, I wonder if I should look into the local ARS sales. The Los Angeles area chapters might have members with examples in their gardens. It seems likely. How on earth would they be able to get rid of one when it had been unleashed on their yards?

roseseek
Posts: 5245
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: A beginner's question

Post: # 72500Post roseseek
Sat Dec 12, 2020 6:19 pm

Good luck!
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

minutifolia
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:09 am

Re: A beginner's question

Post: # 72504Post minutifolia
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:15 pm

Hi Kim. Micaela at Heirloom Roses says the version of Cl Cecile Brunner that they carry repeats in flushes throughout the season. Sounds like your good deed will spread to the rest of us! Thank you.

roseseek
Posts: 5245
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: A beginner's question

Post: # 72505Post roseseek
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:33 pm

Good! Thanks!
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

minutifolia
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:09 am

Re: A beginner's question

Post: # 72508Post minutifolia
Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:02 pm

Hi Kim. Micaela at Heirloom Roses says the version of Cl Cecile Brunner that they carry repeats in flushes throughout the season. Sounds like your good deed will spread to the rest of us! Thank you.

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