Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

A meeting place for rose breeders.
roseseek
Posts: 5197
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72329Post roseseek
Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:52 pm

Yes, Karl, as both Harkness and LeGrice wrote, water stress induces mildew. Dry the plants out sufficiently and you get diseases. When something mildews here, I increase the water. With my selections for this yard, that's done the trick.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

rikuhelin1
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72330Post rikuhelin1
Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:50 pm

... interesting challenge, and great step out from the pollinating paradigm “to make it set” ... good luck and have to agree ... “what ever takes to see what results”

Have a minor interesting conundrum for myself tonight. While shucking hips and sink testing ... from an own root Basye’s Purple that finally did a prolific bloom and hip setting after 5 years (this one generates up 30 in a hip)

.... challenge is half float, half sink. Guide as understood keep floaters for rugosa hybrids, sinkers for others.

Decision ... keep em both ... lots of roses around its growing spot.

rikuhelin1
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72332Post rikuhelin1
Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:28 am

... forgot to add, also keeping separate to see if any germination difference.

mntlover
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72333Post mntlover
Sun Nov 08, 2020 4:59 pm

I would be interested to see if you keep both (separate), to see results. I did that with Hansa. Those that sunk had fairly good germination rate. Those that floated did not: if I remember right there was one floater germinated (out of a lot) and that could easily have been a mistake by me. I'd be curious to see what your results are.
Duane

rikuhelin1
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72334Post rikuhelin1
Sun Nov 08, 2020 5:53 pm

Hi Duane

I would of normally chucked the sinkers because of the clear cut behaviour of even the complex parentage Therese Bugnet and same with non - rugosas. Got 95 to 99% density separation efficiency with hard water ... beats many mineral density separation processes ... though this seed ore is nearly 100% in grade vs for eg tin - cassiterite ore.

However of the couple dozen crosses and OP hips tested, this rugosa hybrid had an outlier float behaviour, and that coupled with notes of apparently a poor hip producer ( got lots of hips and seeds within from my example this year) ... means had to save both products as curious it means anything else besides 50% duds.

rikuhelin1
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72335Post rikuhelin1
Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:08 pm

... or l mixed two different rose classes ... then the density separation technique is pretty good goal judge ... did check plant and leaves though as plantings are pretty dense in my garden

Karl K
Posts: 1354
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:49 pm

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72336Post Karl K
Mon Nov 09, 2020 12:14 pm

Don wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:37 pm
There is not much you can do if the pollen triggers an SI mechanism.
I have read of a few techniques to defeat the self-incompatibility trap, but only one seems applicable to roses: stylar amputation.

The SI rejection mechanism apparently works in the style. Remove the style and the problem is solved. Some experimenters have tried splicing the stigma of a compatible species or specimen onto the style of one that is incompatible. Davies (1957) reported that this stigma grafting was not helpful in Lathyrus hybrids. He had not trouble crossing the Sweet Pea (Lathyrus odoratus) with L. hirsutus.

Davies (1957)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Davies ... s1957.html

This report has links to Buchholz (1932) and Reychler (1926) for further information.

rikuhelin1
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72337Post rikuhelin1
Mon Nov 09, 2020 1:09 pm

This one is definitely going on my “Why not? ... Just try it” list for next season.

rikuhelin1
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72340Post rikuhelin1
Mon Nov 09, 2020 3:47 pm

Score one for “likely carelessness” or as some citizen of the north say “tabernac...” ... after going back into garden to check found strong possibility “Lac La Nonne” hips in mix - rugosa, prolific hips, seed and same near even split of sink and float, and direct intermixed cane neighbour of Basye’s Purple” ... upside good Bugnet rugosa rose to see what pops out of op.

Plazbo
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 12:18 am

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72341Post Plazbo
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:13 pm

I tend to repeat pollination, if the blooms still there why not? But I also mostly mix pollen into loose groups (ie 2n species, 4n OGR, Yellow, etc) so pollen isn't really lacking. Mostly came from some research paper about beardless iris (granted different genus and different process but who knows) wide crosses where some would take on early, multiple or late pollination but failed doing the normal way. So far has worked on the near sterile Crested Moss, hips swelling again this year, and some small seedlings from last years pollinations. Less successful on golden cheronese.

rikuhelin1
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72346Post rikuhelin1
Tue Nov 10, 2020 1:02 pm

Do l understand your pollen pouches are separate, but each specific blend related by “xyz”n, or by class, but from different roses within?

If so, l assume your not fussed about which pollen(s) in a related group succeeded?

That approach sounds interesting and successful, but would require a untethered bungee leap off the wharf for me as origins insecure at this stage for primary target crosses ... still want to be tied as to whose pollen it was to avoid a rip tide.

Plazbo
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 12:18 am

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72347Post Plazbo
Tue Nov 10, 2020 5:45 pm

Pollen pouches are separate and related by trait or class yes. To me it doesn't matter which pollen parent/s succeed or not since I'm looking for specific traits in the seedlings, ie Yellow, if the seedlings don't have yellow then it probably doesn't benefit me in my goals to keep them. Similar with 2n species (which isn't strictly species, a lot of near hybrids are in it), which get used on polys/chinas/teas/modern diploids so looking for obvious cross from any species influence (lack of junvenile bloom being the first obvious sign...then just a wait to find out if fertile). 4n OGR doesn't really matter, mostly just pollen that I use on Crested Moss, whatever takes is a win as it's entirely about increasing the options for cresting and hopefully finding something that is more receptive.

Just another example that's a year or two away. I have a bunch of Blue For You x Fedt seedlings, they'll be crossed amongst their siblings in an attempt to recover juvenile rebloom and mostly Fedt foliage. With a ~2.7% of recovering rebloom, even with 1000 seedlings is only around ~27 juvenile reblooming plants who may not achieve my goal. Given the number of seed required, and similar genetics in the parents vs the end goal, specific pollen parent in those is also unimportant. Even if foliage doesn't quite reach my expectations, but is partly achieved will attempt to F2 x Fedt and repeat the process.

rikuhelin1
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72348Post rikuhelin1
Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:41 pm

Txs for the info on your strategy approach. This imo is definitely a logical and good one to put into the tool box as an option.

... framing the statistics indicates a pretty daunting challenge, scale and therefore why care too much whose pollen so long as know the blend and trait.

Though believe l have adequate starting plant class and right trait inventory spread for blends, l may need to consider more vertical room in basement for more seedlings racks if experiment with this route. No budget for outside heated greenhouse ... txs again as really broadens the options.

Karl K
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Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:49 pm

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72354Post Karl K
Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:31 pm

There are a couple of techniques that might help encourage flowering and hip set. These are Binding and Ringing.

Binding involves nothing more than wrapping a strong string or twine around a cane and tie it tight enough to impede the downward movement of carbohydrates, protein and such, while not blocking the upward flow of water and minerals.

Ringing has a similar effect, but involves removing a ring of bark. It is important NOT to cut through to the wood. This technique is also called "girdling", but that name also refers to a tree-killing method that DOES cut through the inner cambium.

I have examples and other, related methods. Anyone want a horseradish plant to give seeds? How about increased yield on seedless grapes? Forcing Passiflora Alata to bloom out of season:?

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/KKing/Girdling.html

rikuhelin1
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72358Post rikuhelin1
Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:59 pm

Interesting,

... and reminds of once saw a live modern day example of a version of this method this year on Monty’ Gardeners World.

Done by a by a skilled “plants person” from the west country. He was demonstrating it for for controlling wanted, and unwanted, growth of tree limbs near the garden pathways - without limb pruning for latter case.

For “wanted growth” he made what looked about a half inch to inch high incision on the trunk “above the limb” and roughly the width of the limb - trunk junction ... or maybe slightly more

Can’t remember the depth. The theory was reduce circumventing around the limb.

For the case of depressing growth of a limb, the incision was below the limb.

No post video follow up to show how successful. Never had heard of method until then.

I think might try this in the back forty till get it right ...

rikuhelin1
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72359Post rikuhelin1
Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:10 pm

Should mention the live example was for depressing growth (cut slot below) as young limb was heading to be in the way of traffic/ view. Mention can use reverse to encourage.

Plazbo
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 12:18 am

Re: Splash and Dash equals Bad Technique?

Post: # 72360Post Plazbo
Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:23 pm

Anyone know much/tried anything with 6-Benzylaminopurine or 1-Naphthaleneacetic acid? Comes up in other genus of plants, usually at 0.1% concentrations which seems to help with fertility in some cases.

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