Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

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mntlover
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73007Post mntlover
Wed May 26, 2021 8:26 am

Lyykefund sounds interesting! I am interested in those plants that are listed as Bourbon cross that managed to gain cold hardiness: two I am working with are Gypsy Boy and Wasagaming (if indeed Bourbon in them), so I am glad to hear of your winter success! Could you post again when in bloom? Curious as to what the plant looks like having come back from the ground.
Duane

rikuhelin1
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73011Post rikuhelin1
Wed May 26, 2021 3:02 pm

Lots of sp’s mistakes in my last post, but assume you caught them. I replanted R.helenae hybrida this spring because plant was in poor shape going into winter. One cane left that my left foot took care of during protecting. No cane survived neither did Starkodder or Red Robin (Lens with musk in it).

My concern is if canes are starting over every spring there may never be a bloom but thats one of my points in testing. Good luck with gypsy boy as l never could get it to bloom … gave up on Geschwind testing though have 2 or 3 hanging in (E Dorell, Heavens Eye and Nordlander 1). No blooms but keep them.

All in all muliflora type derivatives do not do well in my garden though what was suppose to Patricia Macoun did not seem to have a problem.

Bourbons different story best performer was Zeffy with protection (same place as Helenaes). Gone as l got lazy one fall.
Riku

rikuhelin1
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73012Post rikuhelin1
Wed May 26, 2021 4:55 pm

Forgot to mention, l did finally get “1” seedling to germinate out of probably 75 - 100 seeds laid down. Heavy spino and spino hybrid background. Seed parent Prairie Dawn, pollen parent l am “hoping” is Morden 6910 not an interloper. Seedling not out of the woods yet for hundreds of miles. But first spino that germinated for me from a cross.
Riku

rikuhelin1
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73033Post rikuhelin1
Fri May 28, 2021 7:21 pm

So shocked by first spino germination decided to go for visual overkill and take its portrait through the “looking glass” as proof of life … a bit tiny … surrounded by pots of no shows.

Germinated in a baggy l took out of frig (4 months between 35-40 F) along with other baggies. Forgot to examine baggies and let them sit at room temperature for 4-5 days. Baggie sealed and very moist. When dumped baggies to pick out seeds for doming l noticed it as a tiny but long seedling with the proto leaves. No other germinations noticed.

Based on poor germination so far …. << 1% l hoping this is a tiger climber … red would be icing.
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Riku

mntlover
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73036Post mntlover
Fri May 28, 2021 9:53 pm

I do not know Zeffy. I'm thinking your cold 🥶 is much worse than mine, but I am collecting a lot of pollen from Gypsy Boy just in case. It is in full bloom (purchased large In a pot. Testing various pollens while it is in bloom.
Collected pollen from Harissons yellow, as it is growing all over the valley on lots that were old homesteads.
Duane

mntlover
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73037Post mntlover
Fri May 28, 2021 10:00 pm

Great to see your prairie dawn seedling! Prairie dawn is one I may need to get. Have you had more success with it's pollen?
Duane

rikuhelin1
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73038Post rikuhelin1
Fri May 28, 2021 10:58 pm

Zeffy is slang as hard to remember correct spelling … Zephirine Drouhin. Common bourbon and thornless … pink.

No, tend to use PD as seed parent as sets enough hips - though quite often fails to set my crosses. Extremely hardy in my garden. It may not appeal. It is very tall for here (~ 10 feet for 15 tears old), semi-double. Root cap or crown area on mine is between 4-6 inches in dia of solid wood. Prune aggressively to 4-5 canes and leave first 4ft bare to keep in control and let sun into under planted roses - use clematis leg coverings.
Riku

MidAtlas
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73039Post MidAtlas
Sat May 29, 2021 11:18 pm

I was going to say, it's difficult to imagine seeing any blooms if the canes get killed to the ground...! Riku, hopefully you'll eventually get some wood to overwinter intact with both "Helenae Hybrida" and 'Lykkefund' so that you can see them flower and maybe use them a little in breeding, if you have things you'd like to cross them with. On the other hand, if 'Patricia Macoun' is doing better there, then that might be your best option for working with some R. helenae-containing roses. Since both "Helenae Hybrida" and 'Lykkefund' can produce repeat-blooming offspring, it seems that they are probably hybrids with everblooming roses, and are likely not have the full hardiness of the species. The straight species might be an important target for seed collection and breeding efforts in the future, especially if attention is paid to provenance.

Congrats on the germination--I hope that it survives, and that it has siblings soon!

Stefan

rikuhelin1
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73042Post rikuhelin1
Sun May 30, 2021 10:58 am

Hi Stefan,

Txs for comments and ditto want to see this seedling make it as curious to see what develops.

PD doesn’t appear to be any decendents in HMF except one believed gluaca accidental cross (thornless - guessed parentage) in Sweden.

Must be a rose generally shunned for breeding because “older, large and very hardy” and not that pollen receptive in my experience … l like it because l get a repeat after spring flush (25-30% of spring’s coverage).
Riku

rugosa
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73046Post rugosa
Mon May 31, 2021 2:46 am

HI, Riku

One of the parents of glauca Nova is probably Prairie Dawn. The Nova grows to over 10 feet tall and is very winter hardy. One known Prairie Dawn hybrid is ‘Guðfinna’ (Rugosa Group) Jóhann Pálsson, Iceland 1999, (‘Logafold’ × ‘Prairie Dawn’). Vigor, high and vertical growth habit (6-8 feet). Abundant, blooms in July-August. Mauve-lila-rosa semi-double flowers.

Nova https://photos.app.goo.gl/NhrEwBGm9PKJHyz39

Guðfinna http://roses.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Gu%C3%B0finna

rikuhelin1
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73048Post rikuhelin1
Mon May 31, 2021 1:26 pm

Hi Hannu,

TXS for the PD cross info. Looks like trying as pollen parent is advisable.

Switching to your method of what l call “ice” treatment as l believe Wright or Skinner - as told to me - use put his seeds in tin cans and put them in the snow -“0C” or lower. A hybridizer north of here l believe does the same - but may direct plant seeds. This above freezing l use is not working well enough - even accounting for incompatible crosses.

Did obtain Yndisrós from the land of the blue eyed Valkyrie. My eye didn’t catch if Guðfinna’ or ‘Logafold’ were available.

But did succeed importing Auli, Ruskela (poor shape but may come back in following years), another Porsliini Kaunotar, and Ristinummi to join the previous obtained Scandinavian content in the gardens … and imported some Canadian pioneer hybridizer efforts from Europe. And a modern L83 :-))

Your suggestion Rosa blanda “ Herttoniemi” is in place. Hoping it does better in winter than other N/A blandas tried, and as a seed and pollen parent.

Also finally got diploid and apparently tetraploid laxa - what a long mission to achieve. A really pleased to have obtained Pink Altaica to join my white.
Riku

rikuhelin1
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73049Post rikuhelin1
Mon May 31, 2021 1:41 pm

Ooops forgot second try of “Ran” - most excellent and large bareroot this time and planted in full sun. Also a couple of European repeating spinos by Knud, and a few version of what l call the spino “flora plena” - including hybridized efforts such as “White After Rain”.

My hybridizing tackle box is loaded and
ready to take this climate on head on over the next couple of years … and the gardens won’t look too bad either.
Riku

rikuhelin1
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73056Post rikuhelin1
Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:25 am

Went back and found both ‘Guðfinna’ and ‘Logafold’ are vendor listed. Start of “maybe” list for next year after more research.

Iceland survival is a good endorsement of likely winter hardy here - unless near geothermal vent valley :-)
Riku

rugosa
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73057Post rugosa
Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:12 am

Hi, Riku
I haven't heard of that tin can method before. Does it put bare seeds in a sealed jar or how is it done in practice?

Guðfinna ’and‘ Logafold ’are available from Knud Pedersen’s Rosenposten nursery in Denmark.

It's great that you got more roses from your mother's homeland. Herttoniemi thrives here and is not susceptible to rose stem canker like most Canadian roses, gallicas and albas. That stem canker disease has spread here in Scandinavia over the last couple of years.

The climate in Iceland is very special and challenging for growing roses. Roses that don’t thrive here can thrive there. And vice versa.

Good luck

-Hannu-

Here is a link to the publication of the Nordic Roses project from 2019.
https://norskroseforening.no/wp-content ... ersjon.pdf

rikuhelin1
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73059Post rikuhelin1
Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:40 am

Hi Hannu

Thanks for the link … puts info and pictures to the Scandinavian rose names l have run across that do not require software hit and miss translation to English. Learned l had already the parents of Tove Jansson already in my garden … including a plant of Tove who is going to bloom for the first time in a week or so.

I hope Knud puts an English option on his site soon. But that work maybe market need driven as to efficient payback worth …

As to the “seeds in can in the spring snow” method, maybe my source who keeps a quite very low profile will expand on it. I am more crash and bang my way into info. If not l will ask them and relay. Either way my spino crosses are going to 0 C ( - ) in end of November and staying there until April … l cant get much lower in spino germination rate than of late using the method.

This foray into whats happening in lands of part of my heritage has been extremely fortuitous in finding new work and products of crosses that can take lower than zone 5 and not require me firing my wood chipper up every spring. To bad the prairie pioneer work slowed down due warm zone market economics but there people out there l am sure trying to achieve garden worthy crosses down to zone 2 and 3.
Riku

rikuhelin1
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73060Post rikuhelin1
Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:51 am

Forgot Tove and her parents had no issues after 2 to 4 winters here - no protection used because of high spino content?

Mervillae (spelling incorrect) seems to have done well, but l did use “nominal” protection because of gallica content.
Riku

rikuhelin1
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73062Post rikuhelin1
Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:21 am

Correct spelling “Merveille” … hope is hardy enough on own here to bloom, but l am willing to protect if blooms … not been able to retain Gallicas of this color for breeding - longest living was “Charles de Mills” but lighter - a very dark purple single whose name l forget never made it through winter. Other Tuscans never made it.

First impressions from 1st season and second season growth is it is going to be very tall Gallica if it makes it.
Riku

rikuhelin1
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73063Post rikuhelin1
Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:44 am

Today Merveille, ruler for scale … not had a Gallica this size after winter (with nominal protection which means canes bent down and skiff of covering) based on experience of trying all of now defunct Pickering’s gallica inventory. High hopes are in order that it blooms.
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Riku

rikuhelin1
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73064Post rikuhelin1
Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:10 am

And this year’s planted “Auli“ another Pirjo Rautio gallica work is showing just to left, and in front of R moyessi Superbra (spelling as per vendor).
Riku

rikuhelin1
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Re: Rosa Helenae Hybrida Off Spring Success in NAmerican Cold Zones?es?

Post: # 73065Post rikuhelin1
Fri Jun 04, 2021 11:43 am

Should mention to prevent confusion the leaves in front and blocking shot of new Auli are Geshwind’s Heaven’s Eye that l can’t force myself to remove - has not bloomed and likely never will as can’t take winter here even with cover.

… this great diversion from topic forces me to realize there maybe value in exploring in earnest if a potential new semi or hardy gallica gene pool exists (for zone 3-4) for color and form from an alternative source. Might supplement the known super hardy gallicas pool of known in my garden (e.g. Dr Merkeley, Ruth and Alika bases). High hopes anyways.
Riku

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