Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

A meeting place for rose breeders.
SalixGoclon
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:00 am

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57673Post SalixGoclon
Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:00 am

Complete self incomoatability actually seems rather useful. All the seedlings are outcrosses, promising something interesting.

Rob Byrnes
Posts: 1830
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:34 pm

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57674Post Rob Byrnes
Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:10 am

Going to show my ignorance here but can you define China blood? Does that mean anything deriving from 'R. chinensis'? If so, does it make a difference how far back in lineage?

I just ordered Tamora for delivery next week. This will had R. rugosa 'Germanica' to the mix. Hopefully rust won't be an issue.

SalixGoclon
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:00 am

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57676Post SalixGoclon
Tue Sep 16, 2014 2:52 pm

It means (to me) roses derived from the Noisettes, and especially the de or one. Pure china I think will be more compatible than the china/tea/noisette group.

I have trouble putting it in words. Barden has far more experience in this.

SalixGoclon
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:00 am

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57677Post SalixGoclon
Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:15 pm

This seedling Henry Hudson x OP (rugosa's) second seedling (on the previous page) seems to have promise. It looks floriferous and the form is magnificent. Button-eyes are very attractive, just hard to breed with lol! Rugosas (correct me if I am wrong) seem to lack this form.

pierre
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:08 pm
Location: French Riviera

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57685Post pierre
Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:05 pm

Not sure of Paul concept of China blood, mine is that garden roses were derived from one or two related Teas and since backcrossed heavily so much that DNA analysis show them to be an inbred family that favor specialisation of more virulent desease strains.

Going away from the backcross to mainstream strategy by preserving genetical diversity is a goal all plant or animal breeders are more or less concerned with.

About my strategy shift I intend to incorporate the too coarse bracteata-rugosa-foliolosa (and many other sp) population in a complementary very diverse synstylae cytoplasm one.

Somehow repeating a natural evolutionary event.

johannes p
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 10:12 pm

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57689Post johannes p
Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:56 am

Many accuse me of breeding with Rugosa, well the truth is that I prefer Woodsii and use rug. at a max of 50%.

I think that a lot of complaints are from more southern growers, yes I have seen mildew on Hansa.

I see that rugosa is abit like camels great design overall but oh so ugly.

Rust is always a problem I admit on anything with woodsii and there are other Cassiorhodon that are more interesting and disease resistant like the many forms of Laxa.

I am used to using rugosa buds for pollen and it is time to get it when the sepals just pull away from the petals. I was horrified seeing pollen extracted from an HT the first time.

Schneeswerg, Is unfortunately not hardy for me. I don't think thatI have ever used it. But it's seedling Jens Munk is great!

Paul G Olsen
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:01 pm

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57700Post Paul G Olsen
Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:57 pm

I just realized I now have the means to develop another potential Rugosa breeding line to develop dwarf, compact Rugosas. Many years ago I crossed the 'Ottawa' Rugosa with Rosa wichurana and obtained several seedlings, but only one of them survived. I named it Rugwich1. However, I haven't had a plant of it for several years. Now I have access to one. So my intention is to cross it with 'Aylsham' ('Hansa' x Rosa nitida) and then use a selection to breed with Rugosa cultivars. The seedlings, of course, will be 1/2 Rosa rugosa, 1/4 R. nitida and 1/4 Rosa wichurana, which would be a unique combination for a Rugosa hybrid. They should have attractive foliage and perhaps some will have repeat bloom. What do people think about this (smile)?

SalixGoclon
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:00 am

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57701Post SalixGoclon
Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:00 pm

Fascinating. Dwarf rugosas sound like REAL fun! Now, I wonder how well do rugosas combine with the bankseas.

roseseek
Posts: 5416
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57702Post roseseek
Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:01 pm

Jakub, there would be no benefit to accomplishing that cross. Banksiae seedlings here are extremely prone to mildew, but they grow out of it and are extremely thrifty in our climates. Rugosas hate it here, as Banksiaes probably would where Rugosas thrive. It would be the equivalent of making the blind man, deaf.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

paul.barden
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:20 am

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57703Post paul.barden
Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:40 pm

Rob Byrnes wrote:Going to show my ignorance here but can you define China blood? Does that mean anything deriving from 'R. chinensis'? If so, does it make a difference how far back in lineage?
Yes, Rob - anything with enough R. chinensis genes in it to enable the modern rebloom habit.

SalixGoclon
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:00 am

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57705Post SalixGoclon
Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:03 pm

Well, Well, thanks for that particular tidbit, Kim. Now, to figure out another way to get less thorns and that lovely violet smell into Rugosas. Maybe Rippetoe has a worthy hybrid for such a lofty goal.

Anything with enough chinensis for rebloom? Well then, maybe I should not try rugosa alba x oakington ruby next spring... lol

roseseek
Posts: 5416
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57706Post roseseek
Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:46 pm

Look at something like Pendulina, the thornless wichurana or even setigera to remove the prickles and retain some cold hardiness. Ralph Moore did raise a thornless rugosa hybrid using Golden Gardens, though it obviously didn't have a LOT of rugosa in it. Oakington Ruby flowers year round here. Why not use it in the Rugosa cross? It would be terrible here, but it might work in your conditions.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Don
Posts: 1948
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57707Post Don
Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:51 pm

>> anything with enough R. chinensis genes in it to enable the modern rebloom habit.

It's interesting you would pick remontancy as the marker for misery which really does put us back to the starting line. Some of us are already back there but I'm hedging my bets just a little by trying to create a suite of F1's species x moderns with an eye toward cutting a couple of centuries off the lead time.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Warren
Posts: 1731
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:47 pm

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57708Post Warren
Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:20 pm

"In my experience, anytime you cross Rugosa with something modern (China pedigree), you break everything good in the Rugosa; disease resistance, retrained growth habit, bloom quality - you name it, it gets broken"

That is true with any hybrid, Rugosa's are not the easiest to hybrid, but then you must look at what Kordes did Rugosa X Wich producing Max Graf. This was thought sterile untill one day it produced a hip and the rest is history with Rosa Kordesii. I think chromosome doubling of Rugosa seedlings can benefit these hybrids, as happened with R. kordesii.

SalixGoclon
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:00 am

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57711Post SalixGoclon
Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:34 pm

Well all things considered, I think it best to breed rugosas with 42-03-02 which Paul Barden did with some success, and from there outcross. Then I will do the fun stuff, like color form thornlessness cresting ect. Barden do you still have your cross w/ rugosa magnifica and 42-03-02?

Warren
Posts: 1731
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:47 pm

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57718Post Warren
Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:19 pm

Or you could try something different and get away from the Rosa wichurana hybrids and go for Rosa moschata, it has a scattered repeat.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.17641.0
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.47269.0

Rosa moschata is receptive to alot of things (teas, chinas, damasks, rugosas, gallicas ect)

To create something unique you have to follow lines which no one has tried, so you fail, but you learn from your mistakes fine tuning your next effort.

pierre
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:08 pm
Location: French Riviera

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57719Post pierre
Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:12 pm

Paul G. Olsen: The seedlings, of course, will be 1/2 Rosa rugosa, 1/4 R. nitida and 1/4 Rosa wichurana...

Using wich and rugosa derived seedlings of mine.
Results add wich size to rugosa one and show no fertility except for a few late green hips I went by yesterday on one among many dozens large six year old such hybrids.
No wonder it is just as Max Graff. I will continue trying with other combinations.

SalixGoclon: "Now, I wonder how well do rugosas combine with the bankseas."

Done it with a tad of foliolosa & bracteata added to rugosa. Plant is healthy with a nice smooth inch wide bright purplish pink flower on erect canes that branch little. Reblooms, not inerm, no OP hips and I got nothing from its pollen. I intend to redo it with my dwarf to micro banks derived plants.

paul.barden
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:20 am

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57720Post paul.barden
Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:02 am

SalixGoclon wrote:Well all things considered, I think it best to breed rugosas with 42-03-02 which Paul Barden did with some success, and from there outcross. Then I will do the fun stuff, like color form thornlessness cresting ect. Barden do you still have your cross w/ rugosa magnifica and 42-03-02?
Nope, those all got chucked out. Too much mildew, too few blooms.

SalixGoclon
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:00 am

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57721Post SalixGoclon
Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:29 am

Hmm. I am still going to try it.

Pierre, your hybrid looks interesting. Do you have a listing on HMF?

Warren, breeding with moschata sounds good, but I simply do not have space. Unless there is a mini-moschata (Hmm Oakington Ruby and Moschata might have some fun together next spring. Heheheh)

Gosh. That was a terrible typo :P
Last edited by SalixGoclon on Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

roseseek
Posts: 5416
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57724Post roseseek
Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:56 am

I think we all have "lustings" on HMF! LOL!
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

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