Victorian Memory question

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mntlover
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72878Post mntlover
Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:59 pm

I just purchased Victorian Memory (Isabella Skinner) to use for cold hardiness.
But in looking at it's parentage I have several questions come to mind:
How did it manage to retain such cold hardiness if crossed with a tea and then a floribunda? And how cold can it go before having dieback on the canes?
How did it end up being a climber? Hybrid vigor?
Has anyone tried repeating this with different floribunda? Or tea? Or something else?
Has anyone used Victorian Memory?
Thank you for any thoughts!
Duane

rikuhelin1
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72880Post rikuhelin1
Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:55 am

Great questions ... l have no botanical or genetic answers except my gripe somewhere in history commercial hybridizing veered off in the wrong direction from where the ancients were heading for my wee garden’s small market, hardiness needs, variety needs and repeating climber intrinsc needs ... been resorting to incantations and immaculate concepts like Kordes got RK for hope, and guidance in my efforts.
Riku

Don
Posts: 1901
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72882Post Don
Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:27 pm

You can only really be sure it has laxa ancestry, the other parts on record are pretty surely conjecture even by Skinner himself. He and his contemporaries played a lot of guessing games with their recorded ancestries.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

rikuhelin1
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72883Post rikuhelin1
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:52 am

I had my Isabelle Skinner’s for only a 2-5 years and have had no hardiness issues and use no protection in a sheltered spot. One is a clone from original and the only taker from 23 cuttings of the original donated to me. This effort means original had to regrow so remains small to date from 4 feet in year 3.

Though not a true test of hardiness l chose a sheltered spot as it is impossible for now to get in retail in Canada (how typical) ... though a Canadian nursery has a number baking in the oven BUT not ready ... rumoured to come from Dr FL Skinner’s descendent and other sources.

No hardiness issue in sheltered spot and no disease so far in my climate though been told susceptible to Bs.

The original has bloomed and tried crossing first blooms ... with Gertie but no success but l don’t consider it a disciplined effort.

Will return to it once it reaches a more robust state after failed cutting efforts ( basically harvested the heck out of it out of necessity).

And it is a repeating climber to my eyes ... still trying to acquire R. laxa ( Turkestan ir Siberian - dont care which).

Another one to look at is Red Dawn x Suzanne from Alberta’s Simonet’s work - shrub rose hardy extrodinare, if you can find it in States. Been cloning this rose every year for personal stock.

Apparently E0(zero) 5 is a cross of it and R. Kordessi, and from my early spring examination of it at a prairie heritage garden 10 years ago the cross appeared to have some hardiness.
Riku

rikuhelin1
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72884Post rikuhelin1
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:08 am

Should mention that if it was Red Dawn (his own cross) Simonet used with Suzanne then he had an immaculate concept because all my protected Red Dawns did not survive winter.

So l would not sweat crossing rock hardy (starting to call trait Rick hardy as opposed to Tom criteria) with tenders unless time is at a premium ... seems sometimes in a blue moon someone get a great hardy win for my garden.
Riku

mntlover
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72885Post mntlover
Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:08 pm

So I am wondering, is that what people do, get enough seedlings to look for the rare exception? In this instance, you expect an average between the two parents cold hardiness, but sometimes get a seedling to the cold hardy end, just like I'm sure there are some that don't seem to increase in cold hardiness.
But how do people deal with the longer term testing of larger numbers in order to find this out? Is there a shortcut I should know?
Thanks for the input!
Duane

Don
Posts: 1901
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72886Post Don
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:48 pm

Different breeders have different philosophies.

The brute force approach you ask about is a numbers game that non-institutional breeders cannot really play much less win at because of the sheer scale involved. Kordes is a good example of this, their seedling numbers are in the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions by now as the law of diminishing returns prevails.

'Little guys' like Jim Sproul, on the other hand, often take a more systematic, targeted approach where they are attempting incremental improvements, in his case a bigger better blotch on a bigger better healthier canvas.

Sole proprietors with indirect institutional support can really make progress such as with Bill Radler. It's hard to know how much it helped that he ran a famous botanical garden but I suspect it positioned him to build the type of breeding program that allowed him to doggedly pursue health over all other traits.

Smarts and experience counts for a lot. Herb Swim had direct institutional support yet he worked with relatively small numbers to define and refine the classic modern hybrid tea. Verona Weeks, wife of Herb Swim's sometime partner Ollie Weeks, told me that Herb Swim was a genius at rose breeding.

One thing does stand out to me, though. Every truly successful rose hybridizer was tied at the hip to a production nursery.

My advice is to pick a single realistic objective and stick to it. Measure progress in baby steps, not leaps and bounds. Learn everything you can about growing and breeding plants while keeping an eye out for the occasional outlier. La chance ne sourit qu'aux esprits bien préparés.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

mntlover
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72889Post mntlover
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:03 pm

Don, thanks for the advice!
I am planning on baby steps (when they can actually be achieved). So I am working several lines at once, all with the same goal.
Reason one is to test each and see what is feasible.
Reason two is that I fully expect, with baby steps, to take multiple generations to reach my first goal. This will, I think 🤔, require multiple different options for the next several generations.
Whether each (or any) of these options pans out remains to be seen.
Very interesting your mention of connection to a nursery!
Could you elaborate on the benefits of that? I think I see some, but figure there are others I might be missing.
Thanks again!
Duane

rikuhelin1
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72976Post rikuhelin1
Sun May 16, 2021 10:05 am

Followup … finally !!! acquired R. laxa with guidance … that took awhile. Both dip and apparently tetraploid … no more excuses time to meet mission before entering happy valley blur.
Riku

mntlover
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72978Post mntlover
Sun May 16, 2021 7:13 pm

I will be curious to see how you use pads, as well as the results. I managed to get Suzanne from High Country and look forward to working with it. I have been wondering, however, if it would be good to start over and create other options like Suzanne or even Red Dawn to try using.
Duane

rikuhelin1
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72980Post rikuhelin1
Sun May 16, 2021 9:39 pm

Not sure what you mean by pads … but if you mean knee pads, l worn out many waiting for cross germination. Nada this year so far (mainly spino in them). Switching next year to a Finns technique l read about - that and finding three seedlings under my white altiai this spring (not runners). I use red dawn suzanne white altaia 6910 and in a couple years laxa. All hardy for my area.

Getting the laxas closes the book on stock acquirement for trying to follow the prairie pioneers approach - for a super hardy climber … looking for gold? Start by looking around a closed gold camp … then move out - my template.
Riku

david zlesak
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:27 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72982Post david zlesak
Mon May 17, 2021 11:13 am

Hi Don,

That's a great point of the benefits of being closely tied to a production nursery. One of the multiple benefits I see is that the breeder observes the production pipeline and is more intimate with the qualities that are necessary in each step of the process for a plant to be profitable/successful (e.g. ease of propagation, desired branching characteristics as a young plant, dormancy and other production related issues, diseases like downy that may be more problematic in some production phases like in forcing a plant in a cooler greenhouse for bud and bloom, traits helpful for shipping like compactness and less ethylene response, etc.). Another very huge benefit is having the outlet for ones roses. If a nursery is directly paying for the breeding program in one way or another it will do what it can to first find something that would work for the market inhouse versus license someone else's varieties. If it is an inhouse variety they will more likely put the full marketing weight of the nursery behind their own cultivars to build awareness with customers and try to sublicense the variety to other growers too. I've experienced the following with other plants than roses, but I trust it is happening with roses too. Most nurseries demand an exclusive trial in that we only have a particular rose (or other kind of plant) on trial with them. The idea is that they don't want to put the time into looking at it with the idea someone else could say yes to it before they do. However, the exclusive only goes one way in that we don't know what else they are looking at and in some cases I think they enjoy locking up others genetics so their competitors don't see it and while they can be pretty certain they aren't interested in introducing the plant.

For independent breeders we need to have something unusual and valuable enough to a nursery compared to an inhouse breeding program to get their attention. I suspect there are a lot of great roses people have bred that didn't have the supply chain/pieces in place to come to the forefront. As independent breeders, like many have mentioned, we can make great contributions with our limited resources making incremental steps in directions others are not. The large breeders are making great progress especially with relatively quick to identify traits (flower color, flower form, fragrance, etc.) as they go through hundreds of thousands of seedlings. They struggle too with the longer to identify traits like winter hardiness and disease resistance as they also need to invest in more resources (space, time, etc.) to understand the less obvious traits. Personally, I select on the plant stand for vigor and then plant out those to learn about their health and hardiness. After that I hope there'll be some that are relatively pretty too :0). Many breeders throw out singles, boring colors, etc. I don't mind them because it's relatively easy to get double flowers back the next generation and these roses make good stepping stones accumulating genes for the harder to identify traits that take time. Those of us breeding because of having a passion for roses have a lot to contribute. It is a great hobby, and for the vast majority of us it costs more money than what we experience in royalties. It is truly a labor of love. It is great to read the stories of people like Simonet, Buck, and others that contributed so much to roses that weren't necessarily financially rewarded from their roses, but still chose to contribute and not be bitter about the road blocks that pop up periodically with connecting to a supply chain that have nothing to do with the rose's merits.
Last edited by david zlesak on Mon May 17, 2021 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

mntlover
Posts: 328
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Re: Victorian Memory question

Post: # 72984Post mntlover
Mon May 17, 2021 5:17 pm

Riku, sorry about the typo! I was typing laxa: just discovered spell check (or whatever) on my phone changes it to pads! I should have caught that.
David, thank you for those thoughts. I realize there are many things concerning production and distribution I have never considered: not only the logistics, but desirable plant traits to help with those logistics. A lot to think 🤔 about.
Duane

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