Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

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philip_la
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Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

Post: # 65127Post philip_la
Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:51 am

I'm wondering if this is in any way available. (I'm interested in the abysinnica/rugosa rather than the laevigata, if it is remotely heat tolerant as I assume it might be...)
...And would I be correct in understanding that crossed with a repeater, roughly 50% of seedlings might repeat?
(Any idea how much room it requires?)
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

roseseek
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Re: Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

Post: # 65128Post roseseek
Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:47 pm

I collected a gallon ziploc of self hips from the one in the Study plot at The Huntington back in the early nineties and raised many dozens of seedlings. I kept the healthiest for several years. Almost all were single, pink, once-flowering and all were monsters. One was a pearl-pink single which scattered flowers all summer. I tried spreading it around then had to let it go due to room. I never got further seedlings out of it, probably because I didn't do much with it. There were too many other things requiring space and time. They were certainly thorny beasts!
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

philip_la
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Re: Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

Post: # 65130Post philip_la
Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:19 pm

Thanks, Kim. That doesn't sound very encouraging. Do you have any sense as to whether those were more likely pollinated with species, or modern recurrent hybrids? I could imagine for instance that the Basye's might have been relegated to an area featuring one-shot deals (e.g. species) or you might have had a good number of selfs? I dunno... I could imagine the ploidy situation might select for a decent percentage of modern roses... And I suppose some selfs could have been recurrent as well, no? (about 1/4, in theory?)

*Sigh* I suppose if this were easy, there would be no reward in doing it...
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

roseseek
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Re: Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

Post: # 65132Post roseseek
Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:27 pm

You're welcome, Philip. I'd bet the hips were self set. The Amphidiploid and Legacy grew up into a huge, old oak at the end of the Study Plot. Most of the roses surrounding those plants were once-flowering OGRs and likely hadn't flowered when these two bloomed. The Study Plot was where they grew the large growing plants, many of which were spring flowering only. Some repeated but weren't suitable for the main, formal rose beds in the rose garden. Some repeated but weren't identified, so they remained out in the boonies until they found their names..if they ever did. It was a neat place, which, unfortunately, now is covered by the newer Chinese Pavilion.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

philip_la
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Re: Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

Post: # 65141Post philip_la
Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:19 am

Well, even so, I seem to be a fan of dead-end crosses. Do you know if it is available anymore anywhere? (I became obsessed with the idea of abyssinica a few years back before realizing it was already in this one, and I still have some notions I would love to try.)
Kim, I have enjoyed MORsoucrest, but feel it needs tinkering with as well... I see you have grown John Jelinek's Crested Abundance, and wonder what your take on it is as a possible grand parent to use in reinforcing features of DawnCrest as another grand-parent. Is CA still available as well?
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

roseseek
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Re: Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

Post: # 65144Post roseseek
Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:49 am

The only listed garden I saw for the Probable Amphidiploid is the San Jose Heritage. I will have to remember to ask Jill Perry if it's there and see if I might be able to beg cuttings in May when I travel through there on my way up north to demonstrate propagation to the Jackson rose group. Morsoucrest is a gorgeous thing, isn't it? I still have Crested Abundance and wondered about combining those two, too. No, I haven't done it, but I think it should be done. I believe Heirloom gathered CA when they visited John last year. I hope they decide to do something with it. It's a nice rose! When are cuttings suitable for you?
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

philip_la
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Re: Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

Post: # 65161Post philip_la
Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:36 am

I'm not sure *when* cuttings are suitable for me in this climate! I've been having deplorable luck since moving to TX, particularly with shared cuttings, but historically I've had luck with cuttings from smaller end growth where flowers have faded and hips are starting to form -- my assumption is those stems are laden with stores for developing hips, and removing hips gives a good prospect for a successful take. In that case, May might be a good time for such. But I won't accept anything from you unless you allow me to return the favor! (Picoteed orange pomegranate?)
As for the crested line, I have acquired some newer Kordes roses (pretty impressive disease resistance thus far!) and intend on getting more. I thought it might be interesting to introduce some of the more double "retro" cabbage styles and see if the flower form might carry over. (e.g. Earth Angel or Novalis -- I like the idea of a mauve bloom on a souliana derivative, particularly if I can retrieve a little of the species' foliage color.) Folks don't seem to think too highly of Crested Jewel's garden performance, however, so I'm not sure if that's a line I want to fight with here. Don't know of other crested moss derivatives that might be more amenable to Texas' climate. Might think along lines of e.g. [(DC x EA) x (DC x Nov)] I don't yet have Novalis, and don't know how it will like our climate. The literature suggests Plum Perfect might be happier here, but the photos remind me of Angel Farce, and I cannot get past that...
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

roseseek
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Re: Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

Post: # 65165Post roseseek
Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:21 pm

If I recall correctly, John stated the cresting hasn't carried past the second generation away from Crested Jewel for him. I have also observed it not passing past C04 in any of the seedlings I've raised from it so far. All of the "crested" results there are with which to work are from Crested Jewel. Crested Abundance is the most like it in flower and cresting and the infusion of Tournament of Roses did improve the health and habit.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

roseseek
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Re: Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

Post: # 65178Post roseseek
Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:15 pm

Philip, the Probably Amphidiploid still grows at The Heritage in San Jose. I contacted Jill Perry on Face Book, the Curator, who is a friend and she verified it is there and just waking from its deciduous period. Seems it's something else I need to make a trip north for....
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

philip_la
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Re: Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

Post: # 65207Post philip_la
Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:48 am

Kim, please do not go out of your way on my account. (Mind you, if you are just looking for a pretext to do just something you *really* want to do... ;-) ) I feel indebted to you above and beyond as is, but will concede that it might be healthy for me to have something new upon which to hang my free-floating guilt...

They don't perchance have Lyda rose, do they? I coveted that one a few years back. More recently, I had sort of been sub-consciously shying away from heavily polyantha-derivative lines after reading up on rosette virus, but assume there is little merit in that line of thinking.

You lost me at C04. I'm not familiar with that one. I didn't realize the cresting was so iffy. I assumed (naively) something fairly basically Mendelian. Does the generality include back-crossed crested descendants?
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

roseseek
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Re: Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

Post: # 65209Post roseseek
Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:52 pm

I do want to visit Jill Perry and the garden again, and if it works out I can, I will be happy to add the Amphidiploid to the list, Philip. I don't know about Lyda Rose, but I will be glad to check. They have SO much there... I happen to still have a seedling you may find interesting... Rosy Purple X Lynnie. It's similar in appearance to Lyda and is very healthy. It's trapped in a five gallon can (which it resents). You're welcome to pieces of that if you're interested. According to this catalog, The Heritage should have Lyda. https://fm70.triple8.net/fmi/webd#HRGMaster

There are too many other issues with the crested line to do many selfings. What exists represents the best to date as far as level of cresting, dwarf (as opposed to rangy, semi-climbing growth), and disease issues. Fertility can be a heavy issue with them. The pollen isn't the greatest, but it seems to work better than seed. C04 makes seed, but they don't germinate well. I'd thought of trying some combinations between them, but after seeing what resulted from using them with mates which traditionally produce healthy, vigorous, attractive offspring, I decided to pass them on to John Bagnasco at the Central Coast Rose Society to put them somewhere they stand a better chance of being spread around. Hopefully he is sufficiently recuperating from his recent accident to give them the push they desire.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

philip_la
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Re: Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

Post: # 65223Post philip_la
Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:18 am

Rosy Purple x Lynnie certainly intrigues. I have not so much as seen either parent first-hand, but have been intrigued by both from description, and I can imagine what you were aiming for in that cross. I would have expected a deeper color in a seedling. Did the foliage acquire any cooler bluish cast to it? Any reduced thorniness? I won't say no, that's for sure. And I will forewarn you -- you will be getting *something* in return if you send me anything.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

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Re: Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

Post: # 65238Post philip_la
Wed Mar 29, 2017 2:40 pm

It seems kinda obvious, but I wonder if Dr. Basye ever crossed his amphidiploid with his Blueberry? It would result in similar genetics to Legacy, but with an added touch of R. virginiana and a red hybrid tea. Might give a more mannerly plant.

And how did Blueberry turn out tetraploid anyway? Is it assumed that the female gamete was unreduced? That would be a good thing for this hypothetical cross, no?
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

roseseek
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Re: Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

Post: # 65239Post roseseek
Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:25 pm

DSCN6493.JPG
I nearly lost this seedling last year, but it's rebounded and leafing out nicely, Philip. Well, if you're going to "threaten" with reciprocation... LOL! I sincerely don't have room for what I have. No joke. Yes, it has significantly reduced prickles and has been fairly deciduous here. No flower buds yet, but we have just now started getting into the seventies during the day with still quite chilly nights, which slows things down.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

philip_la
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Re: Source for Basye's amphidiploid?

Post: # 65252Post philip_la
Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:13 pm

Sorry, Kim. I wrote a reply (long-winded, naturally) a day or two ago that I apparently neglected to submit.
The foliage appears quite attractive. (Didn't we all when we were young?)
At the very least, I hope to acquire some nice plants this year, and might serve as a pollen repository for you. I'd love to visit Chamblees this summer -- hopefully when they are having clearance sales -- and expand my palette if my wife allows it. :-D I've been blown away by the health of some of the newer roses, and they carry a few I have coveted.
Thanks!
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

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