First Germination of the Winter

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Rob Byrnes
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First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66707Post Rob Byrnes
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:53 am

I have my first germination of the winter. It is Rugotreat x 13-1. Rugotreat is three generations of open pollination of Rosa rugosa 'rubra' where an openly pollinated F1 seedling from the Rosa rugosa 'rubra' mother plant was treated by David Zlesak with trifluralin to double the chromosome count.

The pollen parent is 13-1 (Larry Davis) which is (Orange Surprise x First Impression). Orange Surprise is (Carefree Beauty x Rise n Shine) x (Carefree Beauty x Austrian Copper). There's lots of interesting genes here and I'm looking forward to seeing what this cross produces. This cross should be hardy, tetraploid (?) and hopefully disease resistant. 13-1 has nice double yellow blooms, is a small shrub, is highly disease resistant here, very fertile and blooms in flushes throughout the season.

Unfortunately, Rugotreat bloomed very sparsely, one flower during a season if at all, so it was pulled due to space limitations. This is the first germination so it's very exciting for me.
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Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66709Post pgeurts
Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:26 pm

Rob,
Glad to see you have used the Rugotreat in a few crosses. It’ll be interesting to see what this seedling looks like. The mother was a sparse bloomer also and so were pretty much all of the seedlings I grew from it. I tried numerous crosses with the mother but it was always a crap shoot whether the seedlings were from the cross, a self-pollination or an OP seedling from another plant. I had some seedlings from the mother x Therese Bugnet where almost half of them were clearly from self-pollination. I also have a plant that was supposed to be a cross of the mother with a (Belle de Crecy x Frontenac) but it’s clearly a cross with Commander Gillette. Which is OK, I plan to try a few crosses with it, but it’s a sparse bloomer as well.
Paul Geurts
Zone 4 Minnesota

Rob Byrnes
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66710Post Rob Byrnes
Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:12 pm

Hi Paul,

I couldn't believe how sparse of a bloomer this one was. I had 3 other siblings that never bloomed in all the time I had them. My hope in crossing Rugotreat with 13-1 was to be able to clearly identify whether or not the F1 are hybrids or not. I'm hoping that this F1 will have a bloom in a shade of yellow, have good repeat bloom and disease resistance. 13-1 is has very good repeat bloom and is very clean here.

I hope you get some nice things out of the cross of the mother with Commander Gillette. Happy holiday to you and yours.

Regards,

Rob
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

pgeurts
Posts: 299
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:26 am
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66712Post pgeurts
Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:30 pm

Yeah, I think the offspring bloom even less than the mother did. My experience with crossing pink/magenta with yellow is the seedlings run the gamut in color. But I do have one seedling that is yellow using Kim’s 1-72-1hugonis pollen on a pink mother, so it can happen.

Have you done any crosses with Ruglauca? Mine hasn’t bloomed yet, it may take another year or two. Remind me, is my plant a cutting of Ruglauca or a seedling of Ruglauca?

Happy holidays to you and your family as well!

Paul
Paul Geurts
Zone 4 Minnesota

Rob Byrnes
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66727Post Rob Byrnes
Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:45 am

Paul,

I do have some seeds from Ruglauca crosses and some OP seeds from this season as well, that I hope will germinate this winter. I sent you a rooted cutting of Ruglauca. I hope it blooms for you next season. From the OP seeds I'll be looking for leaf color that looks like R. glauca. I'll be crossing it back onto R. glauca next season if the bloom timing works out for me.

Using pollen that Kim Rupert sent me, I found that 1-72-1 passes on yellow very easily. Even with pinks. I'll have to check to see if I can get 1-72-1 from Kim.
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

pgeurts
Posts: 299
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:26 am
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66728Post pgeurts
Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:01 pm

Hi Rob,
That’s great that you’ve been able to do some crosses with it and have some OP seeds as well. I hope back crossing it to R.glauca takes and you get some hybrid seedlings. I may get some blooms from mine this coming spring, it’s still pretty small but because it repeats I may get a few. Once it gets bigger I’ll have a better idea what to cross it with.
Paul Geurts
Zone 4 Minnesota

Rob Byrnes
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66788Post Rob Byrnes
Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:04 pm

I have four seedlings from this cross, RUGOTREAT x 13-1, that are showing little, if any, rugosa influence so far. I’m hoping for first blooms this season.
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Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

Rob Byrnes
Posts: 1586
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66841Post Rob Byrnes
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:05 pm

This is another interesting cross that just germinated: Lemon Splash x ((Fragrant Cloud x R. carolina) x R. virginiana). The pollen parent is Tom Silvers' creation. My hope for this cross is that it is a hybrid of the pollen parent with some shade of yellow. A hint of yellow even. Can I hope for repeat bloom in the next generation? Stranger things...
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

Rob Byrnes
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66857Post Rob Byrnes
Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:19 pm

Another cross using 13-1 as the pollen parent on a species hybrid:

Nyveldt's White x 13-1

N.W. is (R. Rugosa rubra x R. cinnamomea) x R. Nitida
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

Rob Byrnes
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66935Post Rob Byrnes
Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:22 pm

A couple more interesting crosses germinating:

Never Alone x Take it Easy

13-1 x FIVI3

FIVI3 is Joe Bergeson’s First Impression x R. Virginiana. I’m excited about what could come from these crosses.
Last edited by Rob Byrnes on Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66936Post jbergeson
Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:27 pm

Rob,

Unfortunately FIVI3 hasn't been giving repeat blooming offspring, so you'll have to wait a year to see blooms. However, it has great vigor, good health so far (although you'll have to cull some seedlings for mildew), and a nice blossom (but short-lived). It has a tendency to pass strong vigor and lush foliage on to its seedlings. I have a ton of FIVI3 seedlings planted out in the field to evaluate, but I haven't seen any blooms yet. Hopefully some of them will have enough live wood make it through the winter to be able to bloom next year.

Thanks for letting me babble about my seedling. :)

roseseek
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66937Post roseseek
Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:51 am

Sorry I'm so late to the party, Rob, but congratulations! Are you interested in cuttings, self set seeds or pollen from 1-72-1?
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Rob Byrnes
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66940Post Rob Byrnes
Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:11 am

jbergeson wrote:Rob,

Unfortunately FIVI3 hasn't been giving repeat blooming offspring, so you'll have to wait a year to see blooms. However, it has great vigor, good health so far (although you'll have to cull some seedlings for mildew), and a nice blossom (but short-lived). It has a tendency to pass strong vigor and lush foliage on to its seedlings. I have a ton of FIVI3 seedlings planted out in the field to evaluate, but I haven't seen any blooms yet. Hopefully some of them will have enough live wood make it through the winter to be able to bloom next year.

Thanks for letting me babble about my seedling. :)
It's not unheard of to get repeat bloom from a F1 species cross. Golden Angel X R. soulieana for example. I'll be hoping for such luck but I'm prepared to wait until third generation to hopefully get rebloom. I really like FIVI3 and am happy to hear that it can pass on lush foliage. I'll keep you posted on this First Impression x FIVI3 seedling.

I still have a few other seedlings of yours that I have F1 seeds from that are stratifying and will let you know if anything interesting turns up.
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

Rob Byrnes
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66941Post Rob Byrnes
Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:13 am

roseseek wrote:Sorry I'm so late to the party, Rob, but congratulations! Are you interested in cuttings, self set seeds or pollen from 1-72-1?
Hi Kim. I would love to see if I can root some cuttings of 1-72-1 this spring. Thank you for making the offer!
Rob Byrnes

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On the right bank of the Delaware River

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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66942Post jbergeson
Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:23 am

Rob,

Technically there should have been a 1 in 6 chance of getting a rebloomer out of a cross between FIVI3 and a tetraploid rebloomer. But I had hundreds of such seedlings this past summer and it was I think less than 1% that bloomed and those that bloomed did not generally possess the obvious influence of FIVI3 that the other nonblooming seedlings did and therefore could have been the result of stray pollen grains.

David's theory was that "preferential pairing" takes place in the meiosis of FIVI3, resulting in it passing on only Rr combinations and not the occasional RR or rr. I don't fully understand it but some people will. If that is the correct theory, then all of your seedlings using FIVI3 with reblooming tetraploids should be Rrrr. Therefore it should be pretty easy to regain rebloom in the F3 generation.

Kim, I, too, would like to try 1-72-1 cuttings too if you would ever be so inclined to share. Early June is the best time for me to root cuttings. Cal Poly was a good seed setter, but I didn't end up with any survivors from it. Miniature and yellow are two valuable characteristics to mix in the gene pool.

I'm not ready for spring in terms of all the craziness it brings to my life as a nursery/greenhouse owner, but as a rose breeder I'm soooo ready to see those little cotyledons popping up en masse (knock on wood) and the little first buds starting to form on new seedlings.

Rob Byrnes
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66943Post Rob Byrnes
Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:00 pm

Joe,

I'll plan on pairing up 13-1 x FIVI3 with some good yellow minis this spring in hopes of having rebloomers in F3. I've gotten some good things from Cal Poly and hopefully will be able to root 1-72-1 from Kim.
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

roseseek
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66955Post roseseek
Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:03 pm

I will be happy to spread around as many 1-72-1 cuttings as possible. It isn't the end-all, do-all but it IS too decent to lose. The more the merrier! I will do some checking around to see if those with whom I have shared most of my roses have any starts to share, too. Rob, and anyone else who might be interested, I made some FIVI3 and FIVI5 crosses and have the seed harvested, but won't have room to plant them. I won't have room to plant easily a third of what I generated, but that's another story. I will list them and anyone interested here in the Continental US where they can be easily sent, is welcome to them.

Oh, and please remind me when it's a good time for you to attempt cuttings. Mind like a steel sieve and all!
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Rob Byrnes
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 66957Post Rob Byrnes
Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:18 pm

Thank you Kim, I will remind you.
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

Rob Byrnes
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 67112Post Rob Byrnes
Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:44 am

Today I have germination from REMORSOUL X Campfire.

REMORSOUL is Royal Edward x MORsoul and Campfire is My Hero x Frontenac.

This seedling carries genes from Lillian Gibson, R.blanda, Suzanne, Red Dawn, R. X kordesii, R. Soulieana, Max Graf and Anytime. Good genes for health and hardiness there. This was a cross to determine fertility of REMORSOUL.
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

roseseek
Posts: 4852
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15
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Re: First Germination of the Winter

Post: # 67114Post roseseek
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:12 pm

Congratulations, Rob! It will be interesting seeing what that produces!
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

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