Thoughts or experience at overcoming wimpyness

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mntlover
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Thoughts or experience at overcoming wimpyness

Post: # 72143Post mntlover
Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:48 pm

Some rose varieties are known for producing wimpy offspring, thinking of Gertrude Jeckyl and Constance Spry. (I know some have produced usable offspring from Constance Spry.)
So a few questions regarding this subject, maybe applied to other varieties you know as well:
1. Does it make a difference if the rose in question is used as seed or pollen parent?
2. Will using it in wider crosses make a difference?
I'm thinking of crossing with species hybrids or Canadian roses with different ancestry.

I was wondering if it would be possible to bring hybrid vigor in to make up for the normal weakness. I realize it would probably be better to choose a parent to pair with that is known for stronger offspring, but what if there is a specific trait desired, such as fragrance in Gertrude Jeckyl? Or say you have a seedling that is a bit wimpy, but provides the other qualities you were looking for?

What are your thoughts and experiences? Thanks for any input!
Duane

roseseek
Posts: 5162
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Thoughts or experience at overcoming wimpyness

Post: # 72144Post roseseek
Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:25 pm

The one I have the most experience with which produces weak seedlings is Basye's Legacy. ANYTHING I put ON Legacy, made as weak seedlings as selfs. Using its pollen on other seed parents worked just fine. I've not raised seedlings from the Austin roses as I've never found them to be worth using for my climate and conditions. They require far too much water and seldom exhibit sufficient disease resistance in my conditions. I have been able to raise decent seedlings using pollen from reluctant seed parents on more viable seed parents, if that helps.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

mntlover
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Re: Thoughts or experience at overcoming wimpyness

Post: # 72152Post mntlover
Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:42 pm

Kim, thanks for sharing your experience!
I will try to remember to compare seedlings next spring, as I have hips using same parent for both seed and pollen. I'll see if it makes a difference for these ones. I will also keep it in mind for future testing. I try to make a cross both ways if I can. Often it seems to only end up working one way, maybe because of wider crosses. This year it looks like I will have several different ones to compare, provided the seeds germinate.
Duane

roseseek
Posts: 5162
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Thoughts or experience at overcoming wimpyness

Post: # 72153Post roseseek
Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:14 pm

You're welcome, Duane. Another aspect of this is to allow weak seedlings to mature and demonstrate what they are capable of. I raised a number of Nessie [(R. Brunonii X R. Gigantea) X Mlle Cecile Brunner) crosses with Faith Whittlesey, a Viraraghavan "Tea"; Nessie X Purezza; Nessie X Sweet Riley, a Yellow Sally (Sally Holmes seedling) X Secret Garden Musk Climber, and Nessie X George Washington Richardson, which is a found rose, determined to be the original Mlle de Sombreuil, all of which were rather weak, spindly things for their first season. By permitting them to mature, I've discovered some quite beautiful, healthy and heavily flowering plants. Had I dumped them initially due to their "lack of vigor", I would have missed out on some truly beautiful results. Most of them are on my blog in the "Pandemic Seedling" post. http://pushingtheroseenvelope.blogspot. ... uring.html
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

mntlover
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Re: Thoughts or experience at overcoming wimpyness

Post: # 72154Post mntlover
Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:02 pm

Some lovely roses indeed! I wish I could experiment with some of the roses you are able to. But I continue in the cold hardy route.
I noticed you had a wichurana x hugonis seedling. That sounds interesting.
I was given a yellow species rose by a local nursery. He had tested a half dozen or so and had three that survived, so he gave me one to use in breeding. I am wondering if it is hugonis. Help me find lists it as diploid. I noticed you used it's pollen. Have you tried it as a seed parent? I am wondering about crossing it with a Rugosa seedling I have.
Duane

roseseek
Posts: 5162
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Thoughts or experience at overcoming wimpyness

Post: # 72155Post roseseek
Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:44 pm

Thank you. I use species pollen simply because identifying hybrid seedlings is a no brainer that way. They often self pollinate very quickly, or, as with Fedtschenkoana, REFUSE all pollen I've ever put on them. I see no reason why you couldn't use the species as seed. I just am sufficiently lazy to not. If you are here in the Continental US and would like to play with Actii, I'll be happy to share it with you. It roots easily. If you think the Faith Whittlesey X Actii might survive for you, you're welcome to that, too.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

mntlover
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Re: Thoughts or experience at overcoming wimpyness

Post: # 72156Post mntlover
Sun Sep 27, 2020 6:43 pm

I would love to try them. If survivability is questionable I will keep it potted and indoors (garage or under the house for winter). I would try immediate crosses with cold hardy roses, then I could cross resulting seedlings with my other seedlings.
Thanks!
Duane

roseseek
Posts: 5162
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Thoughts or experience at overcoming wimpyness

Post: # 72157Post roseseek
Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:52 pm

Tell me when and PM me your mailing information!
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

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