First known yellow rose

A meeting place for rose breeders.
dmears
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

First known yellow rose

Post: # 71758Post dmears
Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:10 am

Sorry to be a problem child.
Is there any data/evidence of the "original" yellow" rose. I do understand, no I do not, this must have been asked or discussed before. What I am trying to say is there such a thing as a "family tree"

Many thanks David.

roseseek
Posts: 5141
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71761Post roseseek
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:16 pm

If you are considering when the first yellow species was brought into European gardens, R. hemisphaerica, per HMF was known before 1516; and discovered by Charles de L'Écluse (Netherlands, 1601); and introduced in United Kingdom by Nicholas Leat / Lete in before 1629 as 'Double Yellow.

Persian Yellow (Double Foetida) was known before 1837. Rosas Primula, Hugonis and Xanthina are all later discoveries, between 1890 and 1904. Banksiae lutea was introduced in the UK in 1824 with lutescens being discovered about 1864.

If you're meaning yellow Tea types, Parks' Yellow Tea-scented China was brought from China to the UK in 1824, resulting in Lamarque, Devoniensis, Jaune Desprez, Le Pactole, Safrano and a host of others probably lost to time.

Then, of course there is Pernet's work with Foetida resulting in Soliel d'Or, the Pernetianas and today's modern yellow roses of all types.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

dmears
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71763Post dmears
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:15 pm

Thanks Kim, one of our older nurseries is/could be closing their doors. I had thought of getting some of their yellows before they close.

roseseek
Posts: 5141
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71764Post roseseek
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:26 pm

You're welcome, David. I'm sorry you may be losing one of your nurseries. So, what yellows they are selling, interest you?
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

dmears
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71765Post dmears
Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:49 pm

I shall add the list tonight my time Kim, some of the one's you have or are working with plus some others

dmears
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71768Post dmears
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:13 am

Kim, I shall add names tomorrow our time, sorry for the non show, Carole's birthday got in the road. I shall also Msg/email you.

roseseek
Posts: 5141
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71769Post roseseek
Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:02 pm

Not an issue! Happiest of birthdays to Carole! Please give her hugs for me, and likely the rest of us here, too!
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

dmears
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71810Post dmears
Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:21 am

I am late, I am late, said Peter Rabbit from "Looking thru the Eyeglass" or something like that, here are some of the list,
Old Scotch Yellow
Nevada Moyesii hybrid
Hugonis
Harrisonii
Golden chersonese
Fruhlingsgold
Fruhlingsduft
Fruhlingsanfang
Foetida Persiana
Canary Bird
Kronprincessin Viktoria
Perle Dior
White Moss
Golden Moss
Mme Legras De St Germain
Schneezwerg
Schneelight
Scabrosa
Rugosa Alba, all the rugosa's
Roseraire De L'Hay or Perfume De L'hay
Agnes

I think that enough for tonight, more tomorrow.

regards David.

roseseek
Posts: 5141
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71814Post roseseek
Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:33 pm

That's a nice list!
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

dmears
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71818Post dmears
Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:56 pm

Thanks Kim, are there any you think are standouts which I should purchase, if available ?

roseseek
Posts: 5141
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71819Post roseseek
Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:38 pm

What's your goal? Are you looking for potential breeders? Are you looking to begin a botanical collection? An historic garden? What would your breeding goals be? They all have their values, but whether the would be worth YOUR money and time depends upon what you hope to gain from them.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

dmears
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71821Post dmears
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:16 pm

No set goals as such Kim, just yellow breeding and to see what "could" come from it

roseseek
Posts: 5141
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71822Post roseseek
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:31 pm

Do you want to have to work the line for YEARS prior to repeat bloom? Do you want to breed species type shrubs or modern roses? If you desire modern types, none of those are going to do much for you, except, perhaps, for Perle d'Or.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

dmears
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71852Post dmears
Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:40 am

In answer to your reply Kim, it is just to muck around, if something comes of it. so be it, it is for a bit of sanity and pressure release

roseseek
Posts: 5141
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71853Post roseseek
Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:03 am

Then, by all means, buy what appeals to you. For mucking around, there is no right or wrong, just what appeals to your taste. What appeals to anyone else's doesn't matter. What looks good to you?
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

dmears
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71854Post dmears
Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:55 am

Thanks Kim

roseseek
Posts: 5141
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71855Post roseseek
Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:02 am

You're welcome, David.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

julie777
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:04 pm

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71856Post julie777
Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:00 pm

I have a Baby Goldstar miniature yellow rose, which from what I have read was bred in Spain by Pedro Dot and comes from a yellow Hybrid Tea called Eduardo Toda, also bred by Pedro Dot in 1947. Eduardo Toda comes from Ophelia and Julien Potin.

Baby Goldstar's other parent was a pink miniature.
Zone 9.

Karl K
Posts: 1337
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:49 pm

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71863Post Karl K
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:26 am

roseseek wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:16 pm
If you're meaning yellow Tea types, Parks' Yellow Tea-scented China was brought from China to the UK in 1824, ...
The yellow tea-scented rose was a self-seedling of the blush tea-scented. It was raised by Dr. Cartier and listed in Cels' nursery catalog for 1817.

This was almost certainly the yellow China rose introduced/imported by Knight in 1821 (Loudon, 1830) or 1823 (Sweet, 1826).

The flowers were pale yellow, and not full. They set seed readily. The leaves were "shining" like those of it's parent. It picked up a few synonyms, but most commonly 'Flavescens'. This was a parent of Smith's Yellow Noisette.

Parks' (White and) Yellow China rose was very double, cream deepening to yellow in the center. It needed heat to open fully. It was very fragrant, but not tea-scented. 'Marechal Niel' probably shares something of the distinctive perfume. The leaves were not "shining". The sepals were simple without the narrow, leafy extension of the tea-scented.

I have found a couple of references to it as the White and Yellow China. Lindley named it 'Ochroleuca', but it entered commerce in England as 'Sulphurea Superba'. Alliance Franco-Russe, Marechal Niel, Alexander Hill Gray, Franzisca Kruger and Mlle Marie Gaze look like they are descended in part from this variety.

Other yellow roses were sent to the Société royale d'Agriculture et de Botanique de Gand by the very helpful Thomas Beale of Macao. He sent one in Jan. 1826, and another in Jan. 1829. I don't know what happened to these.

Karl K
Posts: 1337
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:49 pm

Re: First known yellow rose

Post: # 71864Post Karl K
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:45 am

dmears wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:40 am
In answer to your reply Kim, it is just to muck around, if something comes of it. so be it, it is for a bit of sanity and pressure release
It may be useful to know that the yellow color is due (mostly) to various carotenes. The same carotenes can be chopped and oxidized to give the powerfully scented "rose ketones". The first point, here, is that you should not expect to breed a daffodil yellow rose that smells like a Damask.

The second point is that crosses between the rather pale yellow Teas with the richly scented Synstyles (RR. moschata, wichuraiana, etc.) may not be intermediate in color. This struck me one day when I was visiting the Heritage Rose Garden in San Jose, CA. I was approaching the wonderfully fragrant 'François Foucard', which I considered to be "cream" colored. But some of the "yellow" Teas are no more yellow than FF.

Similarly, according to 19th century accounts, Smith's Yellow Noisette was almost the same shade of yellow as its parent, the Tea-scented Flavescens. Later yellow Tea-Noisettes have much deeper yellow flowers lacking in scent because almost all of the carotene is retained as color, rather than being burned off as perfume.

One of the rose ketones found in these scented Synstyles is β-ionone. This, and the carotene from which it is derived, have a 6-carbon ring at one end. This kicks up the yellow color of the carotene, while the derived ketone smells like violets.

So, if you want to work with somewhat tender roses, you might cross 'François Foucard' [Rosa wichuraiana x l'Idéal] with the yellow Tea rose of your choice. 'Isabella Sprunt' is one possibility. Or with 'Glenn Dale', a once-blooming cross of R. wichuraiana x Isabella Sprunt. With a bit of luck (and space) you could get some bushy rebloomers with flowers as definitely colored as Crépuscule or William Allen Richardson.

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