'Banshee' for hybridizing...

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tsilvers
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:39 am

'Banshee' for hybridizing...

Post: # 71676Post tsilvers
Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:06 am

The subject of ‘Banshee’ [or the various Banshee’s] and their possible usefulness in breeding, has come up in threads several times recently. Rather than highjack those threads, I figured I’d start a new one about that subject.

Back around 1992, I used ‘Banshee’ pollen on ‘Bonica’. The seedlings were once bloomers as would be expected. One of these survived near total neglect for 20+ years until I rescued two suckers a few years ago and brought them closer to our house to use for further hybridizing.
RRD pressure is VERY high here. Often roses become infected within their first year of being planted. So, I wanted to breed repeat blooming seedlings from this ‘Bonica’ X ‘Banshee’ hybrid, that would hopefully inherit it’s toughness and apparent ability to escape RRD infection.

In 2017, I used pollen of ‘Bonica’ x ‘Banshee’ on ‘Carefree Sunshine’. Hip set was good, but germination was not. Of the less than a dozen seedlings, none showed juvenile repeat. BUT… the largest seedling immediately formed a flower bud at the beginning of its second year [2019]. I’ve been watching this seedling very closely and have decided that it’s just not quite good enough to warrant an official trial. It has a somewhat sprawling growth habit and the flowers have a tendency to browning that may be a milder form of the balling issue ‘Banshee’ is famous for. It is very healthy, and mildly fragrant. It hasn’t been around long enough to say anything about RRD resistance, but this seedling has enough good qualities that I’m going to be trying it out as a breeder anyway. Mostly, I’m posting these pictures to give folks an idea what potential ‘Banshee’ has. Here are pictures of the growth habit and browning of flowers. Next, I'll post some pictures of foliage and how the flowers look when it's better behaved.
CS X (BxB)_1.JPG
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tsilvers
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:39 am

Re: 'Banshee' for hybridizing...

Post: # 71677Post tsilvers
Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:07 am

CS X (BxB)_4.JPG
CS X (BxB)_5.JPG
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david zlesak
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Re: 'Banshee' for hybridizing...

Post: # 71680Post david zlesak
Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:47 am

Hi Tom! Wow, I love your hybrid's glossy dark, large foliage and vigorous growth. It is beautiful!! How did fragrance come through the generations from 'Banshee'?

jbergeson
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:54 pm

Re: 'Banshee' for hybridizing...

Post: # 71681Post jbergeson
Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:07 am

Gorgeous foliage.

My Banshee (from Kim Rupert) shows pretty good hardiness here in Zone 3B. Not total cane hardiness, but more than just crown hardiness, iykwis. ("if you know what I'm saying"...just made that up but I'm sure the kids have already done it.)

My question is if it will combine with modern rebloomers while imparting enough hardiness to give the seedlings enough surviving old wood to bloom outside. Plus, if you have to wait until the following generation to recover rebloom, what qualities will come through?

So far I've mainly thought about combining Banshee with other interesting tetraploid once-bloomers. I have one seedling this year of Banshee x ((Rugosa #3 x OP) x (R. carolina x Prairie Peace)).

jbergeson
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:54 pm

Re: 'Banshee' for hybridizing...

Post: # 71682Post jbergeson
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:11 am

This is kind of tangential to the topic, but here is the seedling that I crossed with Banshee last year. I thought the bright color, rock solid hardiness, and masses of cheery, single blossoms might combine interestingly with Banshee's highly double blossoms.
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roseseek
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Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: 'Banshee' for hybridizing...

Post: # 71684Post roseseek
Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:45 am

Wow, Tom, that foliage is GLORIOUS! I'm glad Banshee is doing well for you, Joe. Dennis Favello graciously shared that with Arkansana Woodrow (which I shared then lost, again) and Rose d'Orsay (the apparent correct one showing species influence, not the probable European OGR pictured on HMF). My other Banshee is now at The San Jose Heritage.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

philip_la
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Re: 'Banshee' for hybridizing...

Post: # 71685Post philip_la
Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:06 pm

Tom, that's a really neat cross, and should have some great genes behind it. Am I to understand that this particular seeding does, or does not repeat?

I second Kim's foliage comment!

Do you think the browning is botrytis or thrips? I don't know enough to tell 'em apart without looking more closely, but I have had a LOT of browning and balling on my plants this year here in Central TX. (Wetter spring than usual, and bumper crop of western flower thrips. I don't think I had a single blossom of Lavender Crush open before decaying and falling apart.) Personally, I wouldn't be *too* discouraged by that happening in your garden without seeing how it behaves in other seasons/settings, but then, I have to have slightly lower standards if I'm going to keep *any*thing I've created to date! LOL. (Or half the stuff I pay good money for, as far as that goes...) I think that appears to be a very interesting baby...

Looking at the architecture, I can't help but be reminded of the fact that Bonica shares a LOT of genetics with carpeting roses like Alba Meidiland. I expect that can be overcome fairly readily. Unfortunately, I don't know how easy it is to get any *color* saturation from those lines, but I like the potential. I wish I thought that with Carefree Sunshine in the line, you could retrieve some interesting hues.

Congratulations!
Philip F.
Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)

Jwindha
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Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:22 pm
Location: SC - Zone 8a

Re: 'Banshee' for hybridizing...

Post: # 71687Post Jwindha
Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:06 pm

Here's 'Climbing American Beauty' x 'Banshee' (2018 cross, 2019 seedling). The goal was fragrance, as both parents are very fragrant. Should be pink, once-blooming, multiple petals.

-Jonathan
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tsilvers
Posts: 246
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Re: 'Banshee' for hybridizing...

Post: # 71689Post tsilvers
Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:20 pm

Thanks David, Joe, Kim and Philip!!!
Actually the foliage is what has caught my attention all along for this one. Now I just need to combine that with the right mate to tidy up the habit and hang a prettier flower on it. ;)
How did fragrance come through the generations from 'Banshee'?
Neither the 'Bonica' x 'Banshee', nor this offspring of it, have the great strong scent of 'Banshee'. They're not scentless, but the scent definitely got dialed way back.
My question is if it will combine with modern rebloomers while imparting enough hardiness to give the seedlings enough surviving old wood to bloom outside. Plus, if you have to wait until the following generation to recover rebloom, what qualities will come through?
We're only zone 6b here, so I couldn't help you with that question. As for qualities you might hope to carry through into the second generation... I'd say maybe the toughness and health of 'Banshee' and the interesting influence it has on the foliage character.
Am I to understand that this particular seeding does, or does not repeat? Do you think the browning is botrytis or thrips?
I'm not positive, but pretty sure that it's a repeat bloomer. It's had me puzzled because after blooming repeatedly for several months last year, it then decided to take the latter half of the summer off and focused more on vegetative growth. It bloomed on lateral growth earlier this season and now is blooming on knee high tips of the basal "canes" that were only buds at soil surface. I also see smaller shoots that are just starting to differentiate flowerbuds now. So, it's either a repeat bloomer or it has one heck of a long season. I'm curious to see how it behaves later this summer.
As for the browning, we definitely have thrips in ABUNDANCE! They're definitely a contributing factor, but I'm thinking there's probably some environmental factor as well. Whatever the cause, I really don't like it. LOL And we have other roses blooming concurrently that don't seem to have this issue, so...
Personally, I wouldn't be *too* discouraged by that happening in your garden without seeing how it behaves in other seasons/settings, but then, I have to have slightly lower standards if I'm going to keep *any*thing I've created to date! LOL. (Or half the stuff I pay good money for, as far as that goes...) I think that appears to be a very interesting baby...
Thanks Philip! You gave me a good laugh with that! It's certainly an interesting baby, but I can't bring myself to lower my standards far enough. LOL

Joe - I like your choice of partners for combining with 'Banshee'. Hope to see cool seedlings in the future!

I'm thinking good mates for 'Banshee' would have single (or at least less-double) flowers, with petals of good substance and a good compact growth habit would be helpful too.

I like the foliage on your seedling Jonathan. Looking forward to seeing first bloom!

mntlover
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Re: 'Banshee' for hybridizing...

Post: # 71703Post mntlover
Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:27 pm

Now you all have me really hoping some hips take from all that Banshee pollen I've been dabbing around.
Tom I really like that seedling. Hopefully either the environment will stop having an effect on your blooms or you will get the right cross that fixes the issue. Great job and good luck with it.
Duane

tsilvers
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:39 am

Re: 'Banshee' for hybridizing...

Post: # 71705Post tsilvers
Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:57 pm

Thanks Duane!
Years ago,I also had a seedling from 'Banshee' pollen on 'Fragrant Cloud' but it wasn't as vigorous and I never saw a bloom. But considering these two seedlings and Jonathan's, I think you should have a good shot at getting some offspring from your dabbing. Good luck!!!

MidAtlas
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Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:49 pm

Re: 'Banshee' for hybridizing...

Post: # 71750Post MidAtlas
Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:06 pm

Partly from trying to tease out the ploidy of my clone, I've thrown some 'Banshee' pollen at a few different roses this spring, all tetraploids as far as I know, and have a few good-looking hips setting (along with a few failures). That foliage on your hybrid is more than a little inspiring, Tom. I'm half expecting any initial results to be similar in at least some ways to the virginiana hybrids I'm familiar with, including a Fragrant Cloud cross that you sent me once upon a time (I'm not sure if it's still alive, but it was still hanging on at least a year or two ago). I can only hope it has better anthracnose resistance, though--both your Fragrant Cloud hybrid and a species cross I made with Nahema have seemed to show very weak resistance to that disease, but little if any apparent problems with black spot. My Nahema cross is a disaster during cooler spring and fall weather, but its summer foliage is ridiculously healthy and glossy, almost to the point of looking lacquered. I hope that offspring of 'Banshee' will prove less susceptible, and it has much more matte foliage like R. palustris and (most) R. carolina, so maybe its seedlings won't have those same shortcomings.

Stefan

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