Apples and Oranges

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Karl K
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Re: Apples and Oranges

Post: # 71205Post Karl K
Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:28 pm

roseseek wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:02 am
Hi Karl, did you count Ernie's ploidy? It isn't listed on HMF as triploid and that should be something we'd like to add if it is known to be. Thank you.
No, I just guessed that a tetraploid pollinated by a diploid would probably yield a triploid.

Karl K
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Re: Apples and Oranges

Post: # 71206Post Karl K
Tue Mar 17, 2020 2:34 pm

Some further info on "blue" roses, this time derived from varieties that "blue" with age. I haven't read the whole series (seven so far), but I wanted to report them here for anyone else who might be interested.

The first link leads to I, II and VI. The other reports have separate links, except for III, which I cannot find.

https://booksc.xyz/s/?q=Studies+on+%22B ... +Red++Rose
Bot. Mag. Tokyo 83(985): 233-236 (Oct 2006)
Studies on "Bluing Effect" in the Petals of Red Rose,
I. Some Cytochemical Observations on Epidermal Cells Having a Bluish Tinge
Hitoshi Yasuda

Cytologia 39: 107-112, 1974
Studies on "Bluing Effect" in the Petals of Red Rose,
II. Observation on the development of the tannin body in the upper epidermal cells of bluing petals
Hitoshi Yasuda

Jour. Fac. Sci., Shinshu Univ. 8(1): 91-94. (1973)
Studies on "Bluing Effect" in the Petals of Red Rose,
III. The histochemical detection of iron in the bluing petals of rose.
Hitoshi Yasuda

Jour. Fac. Sci., Shinshu University 11(1): 41-46 (June 1976)
Studies on "Bluing Effect" in the Petals of Red Rose,
IV. Calcium in the blue spherical body.
Hitoshi Yasuda
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/148777494.pdf

Jour. Fac. Sci., Shinshu University 13(1): 79-86 (June 1978)
Studies on "Bluing Effect" in the Petals of Red Rose,
V. A Survey of the Various Bluing Types
Hitoshi Yasuda and M. Kikuchi
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/937d/c ... 1276fe.pdf

Cytologia 47: 717-723 (1982)
Studies on "Bluing Effect" in the Petals of Red Rose,
Vl. Further observations on the development of blue color of the spherule
Hitoshi Yasuda

Jour. Fac. Sci., Shinshu University 20(1): 15-20 (1985)
Studies on "Bluing Effect" in the Petals of Red Rose,
VII. Cytological Observation on the Epidermal Cells of Bluing Petals Incorporated into the Miscellaneous-type.
Hitoshi Yasuda and Akio Yoneda
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/148777427.pdf

Karl K
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Re: Apples and Oranges

Post: # 71211Post Karl K
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:19 pm

Jour. Fac. Sci., Shinshu University 13(1): 79-86 (June 1978)
V. A Survey of the Various Bluing Types
Hitoshi Yasuda and M. Kikuchi
One hundred and forty five rose cultivars, including old roses, were used to determine the various bluing patterns of red rose petals. The upper epidermis of fresh petals, which had exhibited the bluing phenomenon, were peeled and examined microscopically.

The bluing patterns observed were grouped into three types. The first was the cell sap-type where the central vacuole of upper epidermal cells was uniformly blue without any apparent blue structures. The second was a tannin body-type in which blue spherical tannin bodies appeared in the vacuoles. The third was a miscellaneous-type which included blue structures in the vacuole other than tannin bodies.

Old roses derived from Rosa chinensis usually exhibited the cell sap-type of bluing while those derived from Rosa gallica had a tendency to exhibit a combination of the tannin body-miscellaneous bluing types. Combinations of two or even all three of the bluing types were found in some cultivars. With the long history of rose breeding, the various bluing types and their combination could have evolved through the segregation and recombination of the bluing factors, specifically when Rosa chinensis or Rosa gallica were used as parents.
The non-tannin structures may correspond to AVIs, which are found in some old roses that have no known or suspected China rose ancestry: e.g., 'L’Evêque' and 'Bleu Magenta'). The tannin types might be the cultivars that are less blue in dry weather/soil, such as 'Erinnerung an Brod' and 'Veilchenblau'. The blue sap type (Mr. Bluebird?) deserves further attention. Maybe a different sort of co-pigment effect that acts in solution.

Karl K
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Re: Apples and Oranges

Post: # 71216Post Karl K
Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:44 pm

More of Yasuda's related research:

Studies on the insoluble states of anthocyanin in rose petals
Hitoshi Yasuda

Jour. Fac. Sci. Shinshu Univ. 9: 63-69 (1974)
I. The insoluble state of anthocyanin and its relationship to petal color, together with a new instance of this relationship.
Abstract
The upper epidermal cells of certain cultivars of black roses, e.g. Charles Mallerin, Josephine Bruce, Bonne Nuit and so on, occasionally hold in the cell vacuoles massive structures colored purple or purplish-red.

It was observed histochemically that these massive structures showed a color change from either purplish-red or from purple to red with dilute hydrochloric acid and to bluish purple with a weak solution of sodium hydroxide. From these results the massive structure found in the red rose petals can be regarded as the insoluble state of anthocyanin.

In the surface view of those petals having these massive structures in their upper epidermal cells, the numerous black spots, which are considered to be shadows of epidermal cells, are visible even in petals whose height/width ratio of the upper epidermal cells are within the range of the red petal ones, It can therefore be said that the insoluble state of anthocyanin present in the red rose petals may play an important role in the blackening effect on the petal color.

Introduction
It is generally known that anthocyanins are present in solution in the cell sap. However, it is considered to be a rare occurrence when anthocyanin appears in insoluble states in plant cells or in tissues. According to BLANK'S review), the insoluble states of anthocyanin can be classified by the following three types:

(A) a crystallized type in cell plasma (e.g Allium) and in sap (e.g., juice of the blood orange).

(B) a stored type in the cell wall (e.g. Sphagnum, Marchantia, Preissia etc.).

(C) an "anthocyanophore" type in the cell vacuole (e.g. Erythrea, Fuchsia, Iris, Dianthus, Delphinium, Pulmonaria and so on).

Very recently, the present author reported that the cell vacuole of the bluing petals of the red rose, in some cases, includes anthocyanin as a component of the blue spherule, the basis of which may principally consist of a tannin-like substance). This example could be considered as another type of the insoluble state of anthocyanin.

As stated above, several observations have been made on the insoluble states of anthocyanins, but there has been relatively little information concerning their cytological and physiological investigations.

As a beginning step in detailed investigations on the insoluble state of anthocyanin, especially of the anthocyanophore type, the present paper is concerned with its significance relative to the petal color, thus providing a new example found in some petals of the so called "black rose".
Cytologia 41: 487-492 (1976)
II. Histochemical observation on its basal substance.
In the previous paper (Yasuda 1974), it was reported that the blackish petals of certain rose cultivars (e. g. Charles Mallerin, Bonne Nuit and Josephine Bruce) occasionally include an insoluble state of anthocyanin in the central vacuoles of the upper epidermal cells, and it was also pointed out that this state contributes toward the elucidation for the presence of blackish tone to the petal color of these cultivars. In the same paper, it was described how this insoluble state of anthocyanin showed a closely similar appearance to the anthocyanophore which had been named by Weber (1934, 1936), especially to that found in Erythraea reported by Lippmaa (1926).

If this insoluble state of anthocyanin is analogous to the anthocyanophore, it should then be something of a massive structure composed of basal substances associated with anthocyanin. Hence, it will be necessary for the moment to attack the question of whether or not such massive structure is really related to the state of anthocyanin. In order to answer this question, the present observations were made and some histochemical tests on the basal substance of the state of anthocyanin were undertaken.
Cytologia 44: 687-692 (1979)
III. The observation of the developmental process of the massive structure.
Yasuda (1974) revealed an example of the insoluble states of anthocyanin in the upper epidermal cells of the petals of some black rose cultivars, e. g. Charles Mallerin, Josephine Bruce, Bonne Nuit and others. The histochemical observations of the insoluble state of anthocyanin in rose petals (Yasuda 1976), led to an assumption that anthocyanin may be associated with the wall constituent material; the basic substance of which is probably protopectin.

The other significant problem induced from this novel intracellular structure, would be the clarification of how this structure is developed in the epidermal cells.

At present besides the present material, other examples of the insoluble state of anthocyanin in the plant cells or tissues have been extensively reported by several authors (Weber 1936, Blank 1946, Yasuda 1970, 1974). However, literatures available to elucidate the occurrence of these insoluble states of anthocyanin in plant cells are insufficient.

In the present investigation the author reports a base-line on the sequence of the developmental process on the massive structure which develops by associating with anthocyanin and makes the pigment insoluble.

Karl K
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Re: Apples and Oranges

Post: # 71223Post Karl K
Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:41 pm

I guess I wasn''t so far off base when I tried to combine purple with orange. 'Black Tea' combines orange vacuoles (pelargonidin glycosides), with blue spherical bodies.

Journal of the Faculty of Science, Shinshu University 23(1): 61-67 (1988)
Studies on the Development of Black Brown Color in Rose Petals
Hitoshi Yasuda and Makoto Aoyama

Abstract
Chemical and cytological investigations on the black brown color of rose petals were conducted using a cultivar Black Tea and some unnamed breeding lines, having the similar tinge in flower color.

1) Cyanidin and pelargonidin were detected as the major anthocyanidins in the petals, using the thin layer chromatography.

2) The ratios of pelargonidin to cyanidin contents in the petals were 1 to 1~10, estimated from the sizes of spots and shades of their colors on the chromatograms.

3) Microscopic observations on the fresh epidermis stripped off from the petals provide the following evidences:
(1) Central vacuoles showed an orange tone specific to pelargonidin glycosides.
(2) Some blue spherical bodies were recognized in the cells. The treatment with 0.1% hydrochloric acid brought about the color change of the bodies from blue to orange, being followed by oozing out some orange sap from the bodies.

4) The bodies were recognized microscopically as the homologous structures to the tannin body with the paraffin sections of epidermis, which were prepared by fixing in Kaiser's solution and stained with toluidine blue.

These results offered a new explanation that the black brown of petals such as Black Tea was given by the compound of two colors, one being orange of pelargonidin glycoside and the other being blue of the tannin body causing bluing effects in red petals.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/KKing/RosePigme ... n1988.html

roseseek
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Re: Apples and Oranges

Post: # 71225Post roseseek
Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:37 pm

Perhaps Brown Velvet and Leonidas are from similar actions?
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Karl K
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Re: Apples and Oranges

Post: # 71227Post Karl K
Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:24 am

Yes, they do look like similar examples. And I note that one picture of 'Leonidas' is very dusky-purple, while another is more orange-yellow bicolor.
https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.222715
https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.179163

The first rose of this coloring I knew was 'Smoky'. The specimen I saw back in Kansas had an intriguing color, but never opened well. The one I grew in Mission Viejo nearly 30 years go opened well, but the color was more terra cotta than purple-orange.
Image
These examples suggest (to me) that this tannin-based "bluing" is the same as that found in 'Erinerung an Brod' and 'Veilchenblau' that are less blue in dry weather/soil ... but with pelargonidin (orange) instead of cyanidin (red) as the dominant anthocyanin pigment.

Would peonidin "blue" when combined with tannins?

roseseek
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Re: Apples and Oranges

Post: # 71228Post roseseek
Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:39 am

Leonidas, Brown Velvet, Black Tea, Jocelyn and Victoriana were all much more "brown" in cooler weather and more orange in hotter. I imported Brown Velvet from Harkness in Britain the year before Edmund's began offering it (I knew mine didn't have RMV!) and that color shift from orange to the purple haze forming over it so it resembled "Hershey chocolate velvet swirling around a glowing ember" the first time it flowered in very chilly weather. I also found all of the above would form that purple haze when refrigerated, also. Smokey was always similarly colored for me, except when budded and grown under plastic. There is was a very dark red without the "oxblood" or "erythrite" coloring.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Karl K
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Re: Apples and Oranges

Post: # 71229Post Karl K
Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:59 pm

We may need to rethink some of the orange Polyanthas that "blue" to give an odd effect. For instance, 'Golden Salmon':
Image
And to a lesser degree, 'Orange Cameo':
Image

However, the picture of 'Golden Salmon' was taken Aug 7, 2000, 'Orange Cameo' on May 26, 2008, both in San Jose. The Polyanthas seem to have more of the purplish shading in Summer, and are clearer orange in cool Autumn weather.

But to recap, pelargonidin does a grey shade when bound to tannin spherules. In carnations, it gives a blue-grey color in AVIs (anthocyanic vacuolar inclusions). Stoddard's cross of Orangeade x Angel Face suggests that a pelargonidin-based rosacyanin is also grey.

Now we need to learn how peonidin changes with tannin-spherules, AVIs and whether it can be the basis for a rosacyanin.

There is still more to be learned. Among other things, there can be an interaction between pigment concentration and solubility with cell shape. Yasuda discussed this in three papers:
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/KKing/RosePigme ... luble.html

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