Grandiflora or Hybr. Floribunda?

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Giessen
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Grandiflora or Hybr. Floribunda?

Post: # 71097Post Giessen
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:38 am

Dear all, I have an ignorant question: Is grandiflora a completely different type of roses, and does it differ from the others the same way as, let’s say, tea hybrids differ from polyanthas, or is it rather a subtype of floribunda roses, with exception of some features (like bigger blooms)? As far as I know, it is a cross from tea hybrids x floribundas, but is it genetically far enough to limit it to a special class?

roseseek
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Re: Grandiflora or Hybr. Floribunda?

Post: # 71098Post roseseek
Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:57 pm

It's significantly more simple than that. "Grandiflora" and "Floribunda" are completely baseless, nonsensical terms created by marketing executives to describe plant habits and sizes which weren't conveniently described by already existing descriptions. "Floribunda" simply meant "abundant flowers" because they generally produce more flowers than HTs and "hybrid polyantha" wasn't catchy enough for J&P, so a NEW "class" of roses had to be created. "Grandiflora" was created to describe Queen Elizabeth and those similar to her, meaning taller floribundas or rangier HTs with less double, more informally formed flowers. Supposedly, "grandiflora" is a bigger floribunda. There is no "genetically special class" as any and all of them can result from almost any cross. It is literally what they look like and what they are classed can literally depend upon in which climate they are being described. A colder climate with harsher winters and shorter growing seasons can limit the plant's eventual size, making it more closely resemble a mini flora (another marketing term with no genetic basis); while a milder climate might let it be called a floribunda. Let that loose in a very mild climate where there are abundant resources and no weather extremes limit its growth and development and you can easily have a grandiflora, perhaps even a climber. Think of many of the David Austin roses. Graham Thomas was initially described in the Austin catalog as a 5' X 5' shrub. In Britain and similar conditions it was, but not in Southern California where it can be a 15' climber. So, is a grandiflora a different "type" of rose? No, it's simply a rose which, in the climate in which it was described, grew larger than the typical rose buyer would expect a floribunda to grow. Notice that Queen Elizabeth has frequently been called a grandiflora in US catalogs while it has very often been described as a floribunda type in British ones, or whatever the current British descriptive terms for that size of growth is these days.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Giessen
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Re: Grandiflora or Hybr. Floribunda?

Post: # 71101Post Giessen
Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:50 pm

Thank you very much for your answer, I was a bit concerned reading a Wiki article (in french), which - very actively - specified grandiflora as a “specific class” bred from tea hybrids x floribunda crosses. I totally realize that modern roses are annotated to types according to their growth habit. However, those two (tea hybrids and floribundas) are well established as “classes” in the commerce, though the differences are rather very descriptive. Therefore I wondered if there was any use in introducing even a new descriptive term (or class) called grandiflora. To me it would be senseless. But it exists, so the question it whether it is justifiable.

Giessen
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Re: Grandiflora or Hybr. Floribunda?

Post: # 71102Post Giessen
Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:09 pm

Here, for instance, they are “classified” into Hybrid Tea:

https://www.rose.org/single-post/2018/0 ... ZvfH1yzEvc

roseseek
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Re: Grandiflora or Hybr. Floribunda?

Post: # 71103Post roseseek
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:16 pm

Genetically? Probably not, but very few care about the genetics. What the consuming public is most concerned about is whether the terms allow them to picture whether the product will fill the desire they have. "Shrub" tells most people nothing, though, other than climbers, they are all "shrubs" and many climbers can be grown as shrubs. Floribunda, grandiflora and mini flora probably have enough years to decades in use to answer that question for many. Fortunately (?) the explanations seem to be sufficiently passed along from generation to generation to allow for their continued use.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Plazbo
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Re: Grandiflora or Hybr. Floribunda?

Post: # 71105Post Plazbo
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:04 pm

The other part of it is rose shows/societies/trials, they'd be playing some part in keeping classifications going via awards.

Here in Australia, some nurseries don't even bother with the Floribunda/Hybrid Tea distinction. eg Wagners

Some of the early "grandiflora" can be monsters though, June Bride, listed as 125cm on HMF, sends up flowering canes closer to 350cm-400cm here.
Anyone able to send rosa californica (op) seeds to me in Australia?

roseseek
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Re: Grandiflora or Hybr. Floribunda?

Post: # 71106Post roseseek
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:19 pm

Plazbo wrote: "Some of the early "grandiflora" can be monsters though, June Bride, listed as 125cm on HMF, sends up flowering canes closer to 350cm-400cm here."

Yes, sometimes more like climbers when find the suitable climate and conditions.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

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