Coutts #4

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Rob Byrnes
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Coutts #4

Post: # 71093Post Rob Byrnes
Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:41 pm

I have Coutts #4 which is: Coutts #1 x Hazeldean. Coutts #1 is (Rosa canina L. x Unknown). It's a cream diploid to zone 2a. I'm using diploid modern shrubs (Lemon Zest and Mango Salsa) and Polys (OSO Easy Peasy and OSO Happy Smoothie) trying to gain repeat bloom. Once I get repeat bloom I'll cross back to repeat Zone 3 breeder roses that I have, understanding that I might have some fertility issues. Can anyone make an educated guess as to how many generations from Coutts #4 I'll need to go before I get repeat bloom? I was guessing three.
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

Don
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Re: Coutts #4

Post: # 71099Post Don
Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:36 pm

"Now there is much wishful thinking that all that is necessary to improve the rose is to return to the old roses or the species, make a few crosses and introduce some of their ("blood") genes into our garden beauties. If that were all that was required the task would be easy. Unfortunately, this simply doesn't work. Such offspring do not possess remontance or free flowering and if they do, all semblance of hardiness is lost. In addition, due to genetic incompatibility, it is often quite difficult to mate the wild with the tame and this difficulty ordinarily diminishes but little in the immediate subsequent generations (F1, F2, F3). The time interval for three such generations can take up to twenty years of effort. Even at the end of this time the offspring may still be sterile or at best, poor parents. As a species breeding program proceeds and some of the problems are solved one often discovers that with the dilution of a hardy species for three generations with garden blood some offspring will be remontant."

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... Morey.html

A practical example of this is that Sam McGredy said that he spent decades trying to tame spinosissima.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Margit Schowalter
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Re: Coutts #4

Post: # 71100Post Margit Schowalter
Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:33 pm

The repeat blooming spinosissima 'Peter Boyd' developed by Knud Pederson of Denmark was introduced at the 2018 World Rose Convention in Denmark. It took 16 years to develop. A second repeating spinosissima 'Blushing Love' was also named in 2018. ('Peter Boyd' is on order and I will test it in Alberta this season.) I am aware of another hybridizer who has promising material descended from 'Prairie Peace' and 'Madeline's Choice'. Morden Experimental Farm had an F1 cross of 'Sunsprite' x 'Hazeldean' which was a moderately continuous repeat bloomer. https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.63959.1 Good luck with the crosses Rob.

Larry Davis
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Re: Coutts #4

Post: # 71104Post Larry Davis
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:58 pm

Thank you Don for quoting that article. I probably read it decades ago when looking up all the articles I could find on hardy rose breeding, in all the rose annuals back to 1918, but had forgotten entirely some parts (90% or so) of it. But it raises a serious question for me now. By what criteria will we call a rose a hybrid spin, or rugosa or wichurana? What % of genetic material, or how many definite traits? This is a non-trivial consideration.

Thinking of roses that carry a blotch like a hulthemia, how many other features do they need to exhibit to still remain a hybrid hulthemia? Or is introgression of the blotch trait sufficient? Likewise for a spin, do you need to have long spiny canes and grow to a massive shrub under favorable conditions? If reblooming gene prevents production of long canes, is a rose no longer spin?

I'm in the position of having a very hardy (to 0 F and below) once-blooming shrub that looks like something related to Austrian Copper, its grandparent. I labeled it # 1100. Now by using its pollen on repeat-blooming roses, I am getting repeat-blooming seedlings. So, are they hybrid something, or just shrubs? The same Q will apply to Above and Beyond (A & B). Its pollen also is giving repeat-blooming bushes from several parents. One of my best parents in general, and for the two just mentioned is a cross of New Dawn x a yellow mini. In leafage, spines and persistance of flowers it looks like New Dawn, hybrid wichurana.

Unfortunately neither # 1100 nor A & B accepts pollen from the other, but what if their repeat-blooming offspring will?

I'm inclined to just call them shrubs. Hardiness will have to be proven by planting in a good testing place.

Don
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Re: Coutts #4

Post: # 71108Post Don
Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:39 am

I think it matters little or not at all what we call them, Larry, except maybe to us when we post about them to the extent that the label facilitates search engines. What matters more is what Kim wrote about in another recent post which is what they are presented as in commerce.

Perhaps the most famous example of that is Boerner who fused together (at least) R. moschata, R. chinensis, R. foetida, R. persiana and R.
multiflora, and possibly, also, R. gigantea. He might have called it R. moschiltifopertea but 'Fashion' fit the market better.

Incidentally, it is that article by Morey and Fisher to which we trace our own roots. Dennis Morey, in particular, fostered the group of amateurs that became Rose Hybridizers Association and he did it for the express purpose, as stated in that article, of "arousing the interest of enough amateurs to produce species derivatives".
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Paul G. Olsen
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Re: Coutts #4

Post: # 71110Post Paul G. Olsen
Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:39 pm

It's difficult to believe Coutts #4 (aka 'Unity') is a diploid, but if it is then it might be worthwhile to breed it with Rugosas (especially 'Schneezwerg') to hopefully reduce fertility problems in succeeding generations of breeding.

Initially working with Coutts #4, it has to be kept in mind as a pistillate parent its fertilty is very tempermental and many crosses with it won't succeed. I think, for example, I tried Rosa laxa but it didn't work.

Plazbo
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Re: Coutts #4

Post: # 71111Post Plazbo
Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:33 pm

Stanwell Perpetual indicates that rebloom and long spiny canes can happen together...just maybe not in the conventional way...granted the question is hypothetical.

Given most of the hulthemia on the market (at least here, mileage may vary) are physically so removed from the species apart from the blotch it's probable thats all that is required at this point. Add in for many getting any of the first or second gen from species is near impossible.....its unlikely you'd see other major traits like its leaves turn up in breeding like may be expected from related breeding closer to the species, it's mostly just the blotch.

Same thing with mosses and crested really, defined by the trait.

Personally Im inclined towards anything past grandparent is a no unless multiple parent lines are hybrid, ie I have no issue with Louis/e Bugnet being a hybrid rugosa even though its a hybrid of many things whereas everything out of Rugelda (so far) is a no to being a hybrid rugosa, its just too diluted.

I still think sifting through the tiny % of rebloomers in the f2 of (modern x species) x self/sib is more interesting and to turn up useful breeders than jumping straight to another garden rose and further diluting the species compliment before having a useful breeder. I mean whats the point is crossing to species if by the time you get a useful breeder you've diluted the species to next to nothing.
Anyone able to send rosa californica (op) seeds to me in Australia?

Larry Davis
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Re: Coutts #4

Post: # 71112Post Larry Davis
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:15 pm

Plazbo says "I still think sifting through the tiny % of rebloomers in the f2 of (modern x species) x self/sib is more interesting and to turn up useful breeders than jumping straight to another garden rose and further diluting the species compliment before having a useful breeder. I mean whats the point is crossing to species if by the time you get a useful breeder you've diluted the species to next to nothing."

Agree completely. I would say that introgressing remontant bloom is the point I'm after in using something down the HP/HT/Fl HCl road. New Dawn which is a lucky break exemplifies how one can have something pretty near a species yet remontant. the late summe canes of 6 ft weith a flower cluster on the end are a good example. Unfortunately it isn't all that hardy despite the latest American Rose mag article on winter hardiness. But I like how easily it strikes from cuttings, grows vigorously and avoids any and all blackspot types that inhabit my garden. The Buck roses are good in having a fair amount of laxa and such in their pedigree. Above and Beyond has potential maybe in the next generation. Radler's hybrids meet many of the criteria but a few colors seem to dominate, yellows are rather weak intensity or staying power. and fertility for me is never what you'd call impressive. So I'm trying to overcome all that.

Plazbo
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Re: Coutts #4

Post: # 71130Post Plazbo
Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:39 am

Larry Davis wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:15 pm
Radler's hybrids meet many of the criteria but a few colors seem to dominate, yellows are rather weak intensity or staying power. and fertility for me is never what you'd call impressive. So I'm trying to overcome all that.
Very much agreed, even then when they germinate it's often a miss. eg Sunny Knockout makes many seed (not per hip, but many hips), very few germinate and those that do have been runty for me....which is disappointing given the spiny nature of the pedicel and the effect to harvest seed. I assumed given their lineage they'd impart more vigor.

I have a decent Baby Faurax x Knock Out. It's a survivor having dealt with crazy heat and then being attacked by golf ball sized hail but so far doesn't seem like it's going to be a seed setter, hopefully it's pollen is more forgiving.
Anyone able to send rosa californica (op) seeds to me in Australia?

Larry Davis
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Re: Coutts #4

Post: # 71131Post Larry Davis
Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:56 pm

Carefree Sunshine (probably climbing sport) is a far better bush than SKO in my experience. And I have yet to keep anything from SKO selfs, despite planting a couple hundred. Paler than pale flowers and single only. CS on Silver Moon has produced a couple really nice flowering bushes but again extremely pale yellow. And I doubt they are hardy much below 0 F. I've put CS pollen on a lot of things, get seed, get plants, lose plants to boredom, poor flowering or other weaknesses. Brite eyes seems more promising from the little I've used it, very fertile and good germination, but again not super hardy. That's why I hope that Above and Beyond or # 100 will give some more hardiness with it by getting back a bit closer to species..

RBaxter
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Re: Coutts #4

Post: # 71142Post RBaxter
Fri Feb 28, 2020 10:10 am

Rob,

OSO Happy Smoothie was easy to cross with for me and a strong influencer of offspring - fun rose.

I've got a handful of Jersey Beauty x ((r. Multifora x Blush Noisette) x (r. Multifora x Blush Noisette)) Pollen parent is a repeater and is fragrant.

They all look to be fragrant sprawlers with smallish, single, almost white blooms. These are toughest of their sibling seedlings and are certainly wild looking. I should find out this year if I hit the repeater lottery. If I did, and you are interested, it should be easy to start you one by layering, and this fall, depending on space left and future planning, I might even just ship you the original.

Not quite what you are doing, but thought I'd offer.

RBx
Katy TX Zone 9A

Rob Byrnes
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Re: Coutts #4

Post: # 71143Post Rob Byrnes
Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:37 pm

RBx,

I'm hoping to get some good things out of Smoothie. You have a very interesting cross there. Resistance I bet is good. If you come up with a repeater I'd be interested. Thank you for the offer!
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

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