genetic incompatability? What do you think?

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mntlover
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genetic incompatability? What do you think?

Post: # 69444Post mntlover
Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:02 pm

You can see the odd leaves in the picture... I figured it was a genetic issue, but it kept living. It has now bloomed and the petals on the lower half seem messed up. Would this be a genetic issue? Could it improve with age? (I have one other with leaves like that Hansa x english rose)

Mother is Princess Alexandra of Kent
Pollen is either Lady of Shallot (one hip 12 seeds) or Other hip (45 seeds) Cold Hardy Plants (Mart. Frobisher William Baffin Party Hardy)
It just bloomed now and had germinated the last week of January.

Good color (bright red) although you can't tell in pic.
Fragrance is good, although only medium strength.

Since we are moving I need to cull down seedlings. Don't want to keep if it won't change. Don't want to lose if it could improve: especially if more cold hardy than mother.

Any thoughts? Appreciate any input!
Duane
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Karl K
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Re: genetic incompatability? What do you think?

Post: # 69445Post Karl K
Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:54 pm

Duane,
That's tough call. Oddities like this always intrigue me. I want to see what happens next. But because you're moving ...

In the more violent (=interesting, possibly valuable) crosses, it may take a while for parental "hereditary tendencies" to reconcile their differences. In other words, the regulation of numerous genes can be adjusted internally until a useful and stable compromise is achieved.

I had a paper from a French author (I forget his name) who discussed how growers would repeatedly divide new hybrids (by cutting, root division, offset, budding, etc.) and eventually have two or more distinct plants from one original seedling.

In addition, Michurin, the great Russian plant breeder, exploited this unsettled juvenile period by grafting scions of mature cultivars onto the trunks of saplings. This worked often enough for him to continue the practice, but now and then the scion enhanced an undesirable quality in the "student".

I hate moving, in large part because of these necessary decisions. Whatever I discard will eventually be the most important thing I should have kept. For example, the book that had the article I mentioned above. I sure wish I had that back.

By the way. Early blooms (and late) can be abnormal no matter how old the variety. Here's a pic of 'Paul's Scarlet Climber' I took April 20, 2016, in Tennessee. Later blooms were normal.
Image
Karl

mntlover
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Re: genetic incompatability? What do you think?

Post: # 69446Post mntlover
Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:09 pm

Karl:Thanks for the input! I also find these things fascinating, even though I don't understand much about them. I would love to see where it goes.

I was looking at the plant and found a new branch coming out of the bottom node. All of the first leaves (I think 3) are as pictured. But there is another leaf set coming on this new branch that looks more normal, as in long but rounded, not long and slender. Maybe the next branch will "sort things out a bit"
Duane

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Re: genetic incompatability? What do you think?

Post: # 69448Post jbergeson
Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:32 pm

Duane,

I've had odd, elongated leaves occur from crosses where a diploid rugosa was pollinated by a tetraploid species such as R. virginiana or R. carolina.

It was striking how much this leaf distortion mimicked herbicide exposure, but I'm quite sure it was not. It turned up in several seedlings that were Rugosa #3 x R. carolina (or virginiana, I forget).

The attached photo is, I believe, Ann Endt x R. carolina.

I don't really have any advice for your situation but I wanted to share my experience. Despite initially being kind of excited about the different leaf shape, I've come to the assumptions that it is not a trait that can be built on by conventional breeding and that it will be highly associated with sterility.

When the first blossom or two look funky there's a high chance it is something environmental happening so you can't read much into that.
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Rob Byrnes
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Re: genetic incompatability? What do you think?

Post: # 69449Post Rob Byrnes
Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:06 pm

I'm a fan of the longer and narrow leaves. Especially if it could be a trait that could be passed on. I think I have one under lights right now. Joe might have a good point about sterility.
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
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david zlesak
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Re: genetic incompatability? What do you think?

Post: # 69453Post david zlesak
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:37 am

This is a little different in terms of oddities in this picture, but generally, like mentioned, it seems for me too that wider crosses tend to have more oddities. Years ago Julie Overom wrote a nice article on Incongruity in the RHA newsletter. We can have hybrid vigor, but also hybrid breakdown and the genetics are so diverse coming together they don't communicate well and oddities happen. I hope your seedling has enough vigor and strength to mature well. I love the narrow leaves of R. foliolosa and the bit of rebloom it seems to have- at least the one at the MN Landscape Arboretum.
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mntlover
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Re: genetic incompatability? What do you think?

Post: # 69455Post mntlover
Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:51 am

I have been looking at the parents and trying to figure out the pollen parent.
Willimam Baffin is listed on HMF as tetraploid. I was assuming Lady of Shallot is also, if not triploid.

Is this usually caused by diploid x tetraploid issues? I was assuming Martin Frobisher is diploid, although it isn't listed on HMF. Is that correct?
Does anyone know if Party Hardy is diploid or triploid?

I don't have the parentage for Princess Alexandra of Kent or Lady of Shallot (seedling x seedling). I am assuming, looking at her growth, that PAK has some Hybrid Tea added into whatever English Rose mix was used.

Any thoughts or guesses as to pollen parent that would cause this? Yes, I should not have mixed the seeds from two hips, unfortunately due to time and space I did that with several crosses. But the cold hardy on the one hip was mixed pollen, so it would have only cut out Lady of Shallot.

Joe and Dave: thanks for the Pics! I guess this isn't all that rare of an occurance, esp. with wider crosses.
Rob: I like the looks of the leaves also, for something different, provided it can grow vigorously enough. Not good if sterile as a result. That isn't rare in crossing diploid x tetraploid though, so maybe just a coincidence with leaves like this? Or does it seem to be more frequently when gene issues are evident in leaves?

The bloom is blood red right now. Sure wish it would adjust and work well. I could use a bright red that was more cold hardy, cupped and double.
Duane

Rob Byrnes
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Re: genetic incompatability? What do you think?

Post: # 69456Post Rob Byrnes
Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:02 am

mntlover wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:51 am

Rob: I like the looks of the leaves also, for something different, provided it can grow vigorously enough. Not good if sterile as a result. That isn't rare in crossing diploid x tetraploid though, so maybe just a coincidence with leaves like this? Or does it seem to be more frequently when gene issues are evident in leaves?
Duane,

When I did my first attempt at raising roses from seeds, way back when, I used R. rugosa rubra seeds from the farthest beaches of Provincetown, Ma. There were no other roses around that would have changed the ploidy. When seeds started to germinate there was one seedling that had very narrow leaves that stood out. I thought there must be something wrong with it so I culled it. Looking back, I wish I had potted up that one and see how it matured.
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

Karl K
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Re: genetic incompatability? What do you think?

Post: # 69487Post Karl K
Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:20 pm

FWIW, just today I came across an old and probably extinct rose called 'Eliza Tailby'. It was a sport of 'Isabella Sprunt' with willow-like leaflets.

I have no idea how that happened, but it might have been an interesting plant.
http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.83182

Rob Byrnes
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Re: genetic incompatability? What do you think?

Post: # 69488Post Rob Byrnes
Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:25 pm

I like the description of ythe leaves Karl.
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

roseseek
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Re: genetic incompatability? What do you think?

Post: # 69489Post roseseek
Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:33 pm

Years ago, I had a shoot of Careless Love, the striped Red Radiance, with narrow, heavily embossed leaves. They honestly resembled bamboo foliage, but dark green and almost rugose. It didn't grow well own root, while plain Careless Love grew just fine. It languished for several years then expired. That was before I learned to bud.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Rob Byrnes
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Re: genetic incompatability? What do you think?

Post: # 69490Post Rob Byrnes
Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:36 pm

It sounds attractive Kim. Did you think so?
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

roseseek
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Re: genetic incompatability? What do you think?

Post: # 69492Post roseseek
Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:53 pm

It was "unusual" and I collected the unusual. The flowers were also misshapen, though still cerise and white striped. It was about as "attractive" as R. Watsoniana. In those days, there was room in the ground and sufficient water to support anything that would grow, so oddities could be shoe horned in somewhere and allowed to remain until they eventually died. No such luck anymore.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Karl K
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Re: genetic incompatability? What do you think?

Post: # 69517Post Karl K
Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:39 am

Yesterday I found an illustration of Rosa prattii. I had known of this species only through its hybrid with R. rugosa, 'Prattigosa'.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pict ... igosa.html

According to the description (so far as I can make out from the Latin) it is allied to R. macrophylla, but much, much smaller. I mention it here because the leaflets are narrow.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.327375
Image

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