help with i,d.?

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mntlover
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help with i,d.?

Post: # 69386Post mntlover
Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:30 pm

I purchased this rose at a local store: those pots with a generic tag in them. It was in bloom at the time and I liked the bloom and the fragrance both. It ended up growing and blooming better than expected. It has survived several winters, although it dies back to the ground it bounces back quickly.

Although it didn't set hips (op) I tested and found it will set hips with pollen and the seeds will germinate, passing on fragrance and fully double form.

But I don't know what it is! I would like to look up it's parentage. It grows to about three foot here, so maybe larger further south. Looks to be a small shrub rose (even kind of like floribunda in growth).

I don't have a picture of the bush. But will attach a picture of the flower. It often has more of a button eye than in this photo and often has a little more yellow around the center.

Thanks for any help!
Duane
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MidAtlas
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Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69388Post MidAtlas
Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:13 pm

Can you characterize the fragrance in more detail? It looks much like an Austin--I was going to suggest 'AUSrimini' (Strawberry Hill) but then had to stop myself, because there are so many vaguely similar-looking Austins in that same vein. When dealing with an unknown Austin, the foliage, prickles and fragrance can make a big difference in ID. If you're lucky enough to identify it as one of David Austin's earlier introductions, you might then actually find its parentage listed. Unfortunately, most Austins in recent times have had no parentage information published and are just "seedling x seedling," You might get additional, more specialized help from the folks over at Houzz (formerly Gardenweb, may it rest in peace); there are usually lots of Austin growers there in the rose forums.

Stefan

mntlover
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Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69390Post mntlover
Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:04 pm

I hadn't thought of an English Rose, since they have cracked down on the patented ones being propagated. I hadn't thought of older varieties.

It doesn't resemble any I've grown, which is maybe 50 varieties.

The closest in appearance would be Strawberry Hill (as you mentioned) and Ann Boleyn (which I've read is sterile). However, the growth seems to be a lot stiffer than either, and it doesn't appear to want to climb. The flowers are held stiff (no nodding on the neck) like a hybrid tea. The growth does branch out, but is very vertical, spreading little. Maybe that's why I didn't think of an English Rose. Maybe some of his match this growth. I know Graham Thomas grows like that, but much larger. This would be miniature in comparison. I wish I had a picture of the bush as a whole.

I'm going to scroll through a bunch of pictures on line. Thanks for the input!
Duane

MidAtlas
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Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69394Post MidAtlas
Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:41 pm

It's definitely not definitive! There are certainly other options out there, like old Boerner floribundas with surprisingly old-fashioned flower forms. How wide are the flowers, would you say?

mntlover
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Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69396Post mntlover
Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:38 pm

About three inches. (2 3/4 to 3 1/4) I've been straining my brain to remember the fragrance Old Rose? Tea? I remember it was fairly strong. No distinctive accents to the fragrance, pure rose I think? No fruit or spices, not myrrh. This was the first time I tried it as a seed parent, as it had set no hips, so I wasn't expecting much. Otherwise I would have paid a lot more attention to it.

The flowers themselves were held fairly horizontal, not nodding much, which is distinctive in my garden, so that stood out to me. I wondered if there was Hybrid Tea in them that caused that, but then I thought maybe there was Gallica in the lineage?

The only other thing that stood out to me was the bit of yellow in the center of the bloom at times, which gave me hope to get yellows or apricot out of it. Hence the Valentine's Day seedling. Also, a white blushed with yellow that just opened today.
Duane

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Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69397Post MidAtlas
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:04 pm

Hmm. Still dancing around Austins, maybe take a look at The Countryman ('AUSman'); that one would potentially display this combination of traits, and would be an older Austin, too. The background ('AUSmound'/Lilian Austin x 'Comte de Chambord') is different from some other Austins, and could help explain the more upright-held blossoms, the hint of yellow at the center, the strong rose fragrance without myrrh or fruit, and the growth habit.

If that's not close, then maybe learning how it seems to differ could help further narrow things.

Stefan

mntlover
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Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69398Post mntlover
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:11 pm

anyone have any ideas of how to get a rose out of frozen ground... getting down through the snow won't be fun but is easily do able. Anything short of dynamite?

The countryman looks a lot like it (especially considering how much blooms can vary with climate etc.). Not sure about the foliage... like I said I should have paid closer attention. Kicking myself now!
Duane

david mears
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Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69400Post david mears
Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:45 pm

Daune, this might not be any help with the ID, but is it possible to back tack from the "local store", asking them their supplier, then back again or as far as you need to go. If ask nicely I have had great success this way. No harm in asking the "local store".
[color=#FFFF00]david mears
in Mudgee,
in NSW,
in Australia.[/color]

MidAtlas
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Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69401Post MidAtlas
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:03 am

I agree with David about asking at the store, just in case. I would really get those photos over to the Houzz forums to see if those collective eyes can't help ID this, though. And in the meantime, ready your best pick-axes, ice augers, etc. If the temperature is warm enough, maybe plain cold water could be used to help soften the icy ground, albeit slowly.

Stefan

dougwild

Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69402Post dougwild
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:30 am

For a reference, photo of Strawberry Hill in my conditions:
P1010068.JPG
Strawberry Hill

Peter Harris
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Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69406Post Peter Harris
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:08 pm

You might also take a look at the Romantica roses and others introduced to take advantage of the popularity of Austins.

Peter

philip_la
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Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69408Post philip_la
Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:31 pm

Could be a Kordes shrub, such as Zaide, or depending on the plant's architecture and fragrance, might belong to another collection.

https://www.kordes.us/browse?f%5B0%5D=c ... =type%3A88

If you acquired a Kordes, you did well. I'm a fan. But yours is pink, fully double, and pom-pom. That doesn't narrow it down too much.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

mntlover
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Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69410Post mntlover
Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:23 pm

Thanks for the input guys. I haven't seen anything that looks exactly like it. It doesn't help that blooms can vary so much, even its blooms changed a bit throughout the season. And, yes, pink, double and pom pom don't narrow things down much.

Would it be considered rose rustling if you return to dig up your own roses at a later date? I will be leaving maybe forty some roses in the garden. I would like to come back and dig up at least 5 for seed parent, okay more like ten, but unlikely.

I will get the pick and ice axe and whatever for this one. I wonder if the water idea may work. Not sure how close you could come around a plant (trying to stay just outside of what would fit in the pot) how much damage it would do to the roots if you were to thaw too quickly?

We can't afford to replace them all, not even the breeders, at least anytime soon. At least I was planning on a few new ones, and I have pollen in the freezer for the potted seed parents.
Thanks again!
Duane

Don
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Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69414Post Don
Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:16 pm

If it walks like an old garden rose and talks like an old garden rose then...
Last edited by Don on Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.


semiplenus
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Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69440Post semiplenus
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:18 am

It's definitely not 'The Countryman'. Very difficult without the stems and foliage. I can see a bit of the foliage peeking out and it's no match for 'The Countryman' which is very, very matte with a reddish edge to the lighter green new leaves. This has quite a bit more gloss on it than you would encounter for that cultivar. Not sure what it is, but my first thought was Colette a now much older Romantica - but that one has a bit more of an apricot blush to it. Sometimes it reads pink. Good luck - show us pics in the spring.
SoCal 10b Sunset 23

Don
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Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69441Post Don
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:51 am

I'm going with Koenigen van Danemark.

http://helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.3645.7&tab=1
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

mntlover
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Re: help with i,d.?

Post: # 69443Post mntlover
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:33 am

It blooms repeatedly. Flowers can be individual or clusters of three or four. Now a week and a half to moving day and the cold weather continues unabated. Since it was cold before snow covered the ground, it is frozen like concrete.
Lots of pictures look like it, just not exactly it. Too many double pinks available I guess.
I tried the route of the store, found four different companies they have purchased from: no luck so far that route. Will keep trying, but purchased 3-5 yrs. ago, so probably not available now. Checked Monrovia's website and it isn't there, although could have been a few years ago. If I get time I'll try contacting someone in each company.

Thanks again!
Duane

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