R. Persica from seed - advice?

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Plazbo
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R. Persica from seed - advice?

Post: # 69160Post Plazbo
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:44 am

I'm not sure if anyone other than Warren has had success growing R. Persica from seed so may not be many responses.

I got a bunch of R. Persica seed (probably...can't be 100% unless they grow. They are unusually shaped and shiny though which Warren mentions in a post back 2012 on here) from http://www.nova-zahrada.eu

Based on Warrens posts it doesn't seem like anything special was required to get them to germinate but the images on the posts are no longer viewable so can only assume based on the odd sentence here and there. Can any else relay any advice/experiences with dealing directly with the species?

philip_la
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Re: R. Persica from seed - advice?

Post: # 69161Post philip_la
Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:41 am

Totally spit-balling here, but as a desert plant, I suspect the inhibitors to germination will wash away very quickly and easily. Most desert plants are primed to take immediate action when adequate moisture is available. But my recollections on what has been said about such is poor.

You'll probably need to go back about a dozen years for info on such, but if you search this forum with "hulthemia" there is a lot of info. I seem to recall a good deal of excitement at that time with the work being done with such.

I also seem to recall that folks going back to the species found themselves very appreciative of the successes of those whose work preceded theirs. Getting a workable seedling from the intergeneric cross is evidently a very tough one to crack, and then it requires several more generations to get away from the resultant serious shortcomings.

I don't know why, but I think the existing lines descended from hulthemia crossed with polyantha/musk types. (They may all descend from a single seedling -- I'm not sure.) I think it could be interesting to explore the potential in working with other classes. Generally speaking, mutabilis can be a good bridge-rose, and I think I recall Warren saying that some of the rugosas worked well with the *hybrid* hulthemias. But as I say, I am not speaking with any real knowledge or authority.

And on that note, I'll just shut up and let someone with experience/actual knowledge weigh in here. ;-)
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Plazbo
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Re: R. Persica from seed - advice?

Post: # 69178Post Plazbo
Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:57 am

I've gone through most posts on this forum over the last 2 years, the further back you go though the more fragmented the information as posts randomly cut off halfway through, linked sites no longer exist, attached images are no longer there (results of upgrades, porting data to new software, time).

There are two things we have that the folk who started with R. Persica don't have....knowledge of what has worked and hybrids of the species which may make it a little easier or possibly not. That or just throw Crepsecule at it...I mean by all reports its pollen works on mud.

Short comings on health probably (powdery mildew being common even among the near hybrids) but form, shape, rebloom, etc is subjective to the individual (ie proliferation is being pushed as a new trend in rose floral arrangements....personally I find them horrific looking) without seeing persica in person it's hard to say that I personally don't find faults in it, there's a lot of moderns that people seem to find perfect that I personally aren't a fan of (ie Julia Child...I don't get it).

That's kind of where I'm heading with things in general, I've shifted more towards the diploid classes and (the not excessively huge but still would ideally like them smaller) species (like r. roxburghii, r. primula, r. clinophylla, r. ecae, r. woodsii/blanda, etc). So depending on if I have success in getting the persica seeds to blooming age, the direction will ultimately be a bit off the beaten path simply by virtue of what I'm using as breeders...as it stands around half of my breeding population is a species or a 1st generation hybrid (if it's under 3meters and I had access to it, it end up here...it turns out to be a very diverse range of species and that a lot of Australian growers are really happy to send suckers and/or cuttings of things that are in the country but not commercially available).

david mears
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Re: R. Persica from seed - advice?

Post: # 69185Post david mears
Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:03 pm

Hi Plazbo,
It is possible to send cuttings/suckers to you but there is a but, A BIG BUT, cost, from this end(Australia), quarantine regulations, then, if your Dept of Agriculture allow it, quarantine your end. Seed would be the only way I assume.
Warren(Willington) might chime in if he is around. He has had budwood sent to Belgium so he would know of costs from this end.
[color=#FFFF00]david mears
in Mudgee,
in NSW,
in Australia.[/color]

Karl K
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Re: R. Persica from seed - advice?

Post: # 69186Post Karl K
Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:15 pm

I don't know how useful this may be, but I came across a paper recently that has a bit of interesting info. According to the authors, Rosa persica and R. foetida are very close cousins.

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... A2008.html
American Journal of Botany, (95): 353-366. (2008)
AFLP markers as a tool to reconstruct complex relationships: A case study in Rosa (Rosaceae).
Koopman et al.

Image

Plazbo
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Re: R. Persica from seed - advice?

Post: # 69195Post Plazbo
Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:55 pm

@david mears
I'm in Australia (Sydney) ;) My last sentence was referring to things people have already sent from other parts of Australia...there's a lot of things growing in Australia that have stepped out of the nursery trade (probably because they aren't big sellers compared to modern shrubs/ht/floribunda) or aren't being propogated with recent deaths, health issues, retirement, etc or came into the country as seed to very few people (like a lot of the clinophylla and hybrids of...on a tangent it appears Simon Voorewinde has given up on roses and no longer keeps them which is a little sad given some of the rarities he had) but surprisingly haven't been difficult to acquire. I expected a much steeper hill to climb for some of the things that I have now.

@karl k
It's an avenue I will be able to explore (if I manage to get the persica seeds to grow/survive/bloom), I have foetida (the glandular fruity smell of the buds interests me), several near hybrids and is something I'm actively playing around with (although it is reluctant, hips aborted but it's pollen on Talisman seems to have set a couple hips that are approaching harvest).

On a tangent roxburghii and hugonis...potential bridge there between some very diverse roses given what both have breed with...something for next season.

Karl K
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Re: R. Persica from seed - advice?

Post: # 69202Post Karl K
Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:18 pm

Plazbo wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:55 pm
On a tangent roxburghii and hugonis...potential bridge there between some very diverse roses given what both have breed with...something for next season.
I've mentioned it before, but it is worth repeating. I once pollinated R. roxburghii by 'Doorenbos Selection'. The latter is a continuously flowering Spinosissima. A hip formed, but I got too anxious and cut it open before the seeds had a chance to ripen. The seeds looked to be doing well, but I didn't try to grow them. And I never repeated the cross.

BTW, this was the excessively double Roxburghii that isn't prone to OP hips. I once saw a bee poking around one of the blooms for a while, then flew away in disgust. Or what looked like disgust.

My point is that if one Pimpinifoliae species works on Roxburghii, it's worth trying some others.
Karl

Don
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Re: R. Persica from seed - advice?

Post: # 69204Post Don
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:40 pm

These may be useful references.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sPeICN ... sp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12FScCo ... sp=sharing

Also, from Karl's website: http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... RSICA.HTML

I noticed in Koopman et al way back that, besides foetida, persica was also close to sericea which is why I gathered up as many cultivars of sericea as I could find. Not one seed resulted from crosses between all of Moore's hulhemias (save Persion Light which I did not have) and all of those sericeas/omiensis. I do suspect foetida crosses onto hulthemias would work but it could take some head pounding. BTW I also tried two cultivars of roxburghii on Moore's hulthemias with the same non-results.

I think it would be more productive to start with the most recent hulthemia hybrids and pursue those than to start over with persica. It took Harkness and Cocker their entire careers to generate only a few hybrids then it took Moore another generation to generate his from theirs. The blotch genes have already been captured, they need refinement.

I think someone pursuing Rosa persica should work in a hot dry climate. It would be even more important for persica x foetida. I think that the dearth of results for Harness and Cocker had a lot to do with England's climate. Moore and Sproul had better results and they were in southern California.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Karl K
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Re: R. Persica from seed - advice?

Post: # 69205Post Karl K
Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:30 pm

Don wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:40 pm
I think someone pursuing Rosa persica should work in a hot dry climate. It would be even more important for persica x foetida. I think that the dearth of results for Harness and Cocker had a lot to do with England's climate. Moore and Sproul had better results and they were in southern California.
I agree. It's difficult enough to unite remote species. There's no point in fighting the climate as well.

And this applies to Rosa laevigata as well. The most successful American efforts have been in California where Laevigata gets plenty of hear: Schoener (Santa Barbara), Burbank (Santa Rosa and Sebastopol) and Hockridge (Redlands).
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pict ... brids.html

philip_la
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Re: R. Persica from seed - advice?

Post: # 69207Post philip_la
Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:14 am

I'm thinking that Australia ain't hurting for heat at the moment. They probably envy us the polar vortex...

[I hope all of our Australian colleagues are doing as well as can be expected with the latest heat wave, as well as their gardens. Thoughts are with you all.]

At any rate, this entire hobby is about beating the odds, and knowing how difficult the hulthemias are to work with should make any modicum of success all the sweeter.

But just for my own edification, would a Pimpinellifoliae species be better than e.g. a Pimpinellifoliae hybrid? I would imagine crossing with a recurrent hybrid would have a double advantage in that potential species barriers might already be broken down somewhat, in addition to affording the possibility of rebloomers in the F2. (I'm inquiring, not asserting, mind you.)
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Don
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Re: R. Persica from seed - advice?

Post: # 69208Post Don
Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:14 am

With the exception of McGready's painted series I doubt there are any spin hybrids that are very far removed from the species but, sure, any hybrids would be potential bridges. Outfit yourself for a long haul.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Plazbo
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Re: R. Persica from seed - advice?

Post: # 69211Post Plazbo
Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:06 am

Don wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:40 pm
The blotch genes have already been captured, they need refinement.
I'd agree if that's the only interesting thing about the species...it might be to some, maybe not for others, I don't know, I haven't seen it in person. It's lack of leaflets interests me the same way roxburghii's many leaflets interest me in that both are far from the usual 5-7 leaflets. Given it's weed like status in it's native habitat, a fairly harsh one at that, I'm interested in it's physiology....especially when adding in my location, a country that see's drought often and has summer temps over 104f and night time temps that are rarely dropping below 70f.
philip_la wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:14 am
[I hope all of our Australian colleagues are doing as well as can be expected with the latest heat wave, as well as their gardens. Thoughts are with you all.]
For the most part they are surviving, seedling deaths (but that's common for almost everyone for one reason or another) no mature (or new bare root last year) deaths....although a lot (most) blooms scorch awfully. I'm not sure I have any moderns that don't show obvious heat stress issues. Interestingly, things like Dagmar Hastrup, Anne Endt and (the routinely despised) Robusta seem almost completely unphased by the heat. Carefree Beauty is neither carefree or a beauty in this climate, KO and Sunny KO don't seem fond of it either (KO has some weird patchy black sections on it's leaves, no yellowing....it's odd...I almost want to suggestion it's hyper pigmentation but that seems nutty). A lot of the poly/tea/china's have crispy flowers none of them have happy looking growth tips.

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