Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

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henry kuska
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Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68336Post henry kuska
Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:28 pm

Title: "Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles"

See:

http://journal.ashspublications.org/con ... l.pdf+html

Karl K
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68441Post Karl K
Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:39 pm

I still remember being told, many years ago, that a hybrid cannot inherit anything that was not already present in the parents.

Much has been learned since then. And even if we only allow that no new genes will be found (not a safe bet), there still can be a host of new substances.

Inspired by this paper, I went a-googling and found this interesting bit;

Biotechnology in Flavor Production pp. 53-54 (2016)
By Daphna Havkin-Frenkel, Nativ Dudai

Basil is also a rich source of genes that may be useful for transformation into other plant species for the modification of aroma. For example, the GES gene from basil has been used to transform tomato (Davidovich-Rikanati et al. 2007). The volatiles isolated from the transgenic fruit were markedly different from those isolated from non-transgenic control fruit. The components citral, geranial, and neral were present at six times the levels seen in the controls. In addition, owing to the action of endogenous enzymes on geraniol, some geraniol derivatives, such as citronellal, citronellyl acetate, geranyl acetate, and rose oxide, were found only in the transgenic fruit. These results indicate that the addition of a single new gene in a biosynthetic pathway may result in unexpected products owing to the conversion of excess substrate by endogenous enzymes. Many plant enzymes can act on numerous substrates, including some substrates that are not normally present. For example, Dudai et al. (2000) found that germinating wheat seeds were able to metabolize exogenously applied monoterpenes, even though the wheat seeds themselves did not contain any monoterpenes.
https://books.google.com/books?id=SAL9C ... e&q&f=true

Don
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68443Post Don
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:46 pm

Picking on Mendel - I smell fish bait, or at least phenylpropanoids. Your argument reduces to how you define "already present". Plenty of traits lack expression in one generation but get esspressoed in the next with no new gene involved.I just read somewhere that 80% or so of plant genomes are transposons, for starters.

What else you got?
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Karl K
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68444Post Karl K
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:10 am

To be clear, I was referring to what I was taught back in the '60s, a century after Mendel did his writing. Aside from that I was merely giving an intro into what I think is an interesting topic.

For example, where do we find a species rose with a lemon scent? We do find lemon in the scent of some cultivated roses: 'Intrigue' combines lemon with "old rose" in its purple blooms, and Moore's 'Lemon Delight' has it in its moss.

On the other hand, one parent may "contribute" the lack of a critical enzyme, while the other provides a substrate that is no longer transformed into something else. That is how the yellow Tea-Noisettes end up with more color than the yellow Teas.

Don
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68450Post Don
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:52 pm

I'm with you on the concept.

>> That is how the yellow Tea-Noisettes end up with more color than the yellow Teas.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11493&p=16674&hilit=anna+bo#p16674

>> Moore's 'Lemon Delight' has it in its moss.

I have been trying for a decade to get a copy of Lemon Delight to cross with my mossed glutinosa f1's that have retained their pine scent. Not only does Lemon Delight apparently express lemonene but it is one of the very few, two maybe, hybrids between a hard moss and a soft moss. I think Burling is trying to root a copy for me but if you or anyone else know where I can please let me know.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Karl K
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68456Post Karl K
Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:29 am

And it's not just novel substances that can show up in hybrids. Novel traits are also seen. Aside from Griesel (1966), these reports were published before I was born, in plenty of time to be mentioned in biology textbooks. But when I was in high school, the textbook publishers were still pushing the old "modern synthesis" junk -- the curious notion that evolution proceeds by an endless series of random gene mutations moving smoothly from one species to another, while leaving no trace of the intermediacy.

Vilmorin's Argemone Hybrids (1913)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Argemone/Argemone.html
F1 uniform; F2 included two types of doubling as well as a few polycephalic plants.

Pfitzer: Improving tuberous begonias, gladioli and Salvia (1911)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Pfitze ... r1911.html
Double-flowered tuberous begonias appeared among hybrid offspring of two single-flowered species.

Johnson: Flathead Lake Penstemon (1951)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Johnso ... n1951.html
Everblooming natural hybrid of two once-blooming species

Griesel: Photoperiod and Cestrum (1966)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Griese ... m1966.html
Day-neutral (everblooming) species crossed with a long-day/long-short-day relative. Among F2 offspring there was a short-day plant. "The above data suggest the presence of 2 independent genes or gene groups controlling floral primordia initiation in C. nocturnum."
Thus, there was no "gene for everblooming".

Francis: Double Seeding Petunias (1915)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Franci ... unias.html
The original double-flowered petunia lacked style and ovary, and was thus unable to bear seeds. After Mrs. Francis used pollen from a double petunia on Grandiflora-type garden varieties, all heck broke loose. Some later generation plants were female fertile/male sterile. Others were double and fully fertile. And one plant had single, perfect-looking flowers that were sterile.

Smith: Begonia phyllomaniaca (1919)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Begoni ... a1919.html
Begonia prolifera, sprouting tiny leaves on the surface of its stems and leaves, was displayed in the mid-19th century, but without any information as to its origin. The peculiarity was duplicated by Ducharte (1887) in a hybrid of B. incarnata x B. lucida. Bateson (1913) also found the trait in hybrids of B. heracleifolia x B. polyantha. The B. prolifera of De Candolle (1859) was something else.

Lotsy: Snapdragon Hybrids (1916)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/LotsyS ... s1916.html
Antirrhinum glutinosum x A. magus; one F2 specimen bore flowers resembling Rhinanthus rather than Antirrhinum.

Plazbo
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68457Post Plazbo
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:25 pm

Don wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:52 pm
I have been trying for a decade to get a copy of Lemon Delight to cross with my mossed glutinosa f1's that have retained their pine scent. Not only does Lemon Delight apparently express lemonene but it is one of the very few, two maybe, hybrids between a hard moss and a soft moss. I think Burling is trying to root a copy for me but if you or anyone else know where I can please let me know.
I've read that, it's the reason I got it this year (well 3ish months ago)....I'm not convinced. There's a scent (not strong) to the moss but I wouldn't call it lemon, maybe my plant just isn't mature enough yet, first flowering was today. I put a bunch of feotida bicolour pollen on it, it's glandular bits have a strong distinctly not pine/plant/pepper smell...may be interesting.

Karl K
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68497Post Karl K
Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:09 pm

Plazbo wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:25 pm
I've read that, it's the reason I got it this year (well 3ish months ago)....I'm not convinced. There's a scent (not strong) to the moss but I wouldn't call it lemon, maybe my plant just isn't mature enough yet, first flowering was today.
I had "Lemon Delight' around 25 years ago. After that I glanced at it from time to time at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden. I recall the lemon scent, but I won't deny the possibility that suggestion and wishful thinking played some part. And the lemon yellow flowers didn't hurt.

'Colonial White' (RICO Sombreuil) also has lemon in its scent. I read that the scent is like Scotch Magic Mending Tape. The lemon component became particularly prominent when I sniffed an unusually formed flower that was not flat. Sniffing around the bloom I found that the center of the flower (petaloids or capels?) had a strong, oily, and a little unpleasant lemon fragrance - like lemon furniture polish. The outer petals were sweet apple, like some other Wichuraiana-Tea hybrids. In the usual form of the flower, the lemon is less harsh, and is softened by the sweet apple.

'Harriny' originally struck me as grapefruit, with no suggestion or wishful thinking involved. In the years that followed, the scent remained to my nose.
Karl

ps. It just occurred to me to look up the ancestry of 'Harriny'. Turns out that 'New Dawn', the reported seed parent of 'Colonial White', is in there behind 'Pink Favorite'.

Don
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68498Post Don
Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:38 pm

I'm interested in Lemon Delight for the prickles. I would like to see whether and how the hard and soft prickles express in combination. Mossing, being essentially up-regulation of and/or superposition of the glandular organs onto the prickles adds a third dimension. Composition of the essential oils adds another degree of complexity. Crossing it with Sericia would make things even more interesting.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Karl K
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68499Post Karl K
Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:47 pm

Le Grice (1976) wrote:
Lemon is a common perfume mostly in combination. I would prefer to think of it as lemon-scented verbena (Lippia citriodora). A rose with this perfume is Sutter's Gold, while City of Hereford, Harriny and Ophelia are a mixture of damask and lemon, the former being more evident in the younger flower.

I never noticed a damask scent in 'Harriny'. Maybe that aspect of the perfume burned away in the San Jose heat.

Don
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68501Post Don
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:28 pm

>> I never noticed a damask scent in 'Harriny'. Maybe that aspect of the perfume burned away in the San Jose heat.

There are probably a couple of reasons for that besides that one. The biochemistry of terpenes has a lot of opportunity for variation based on things like temperature, sunlight and even age of the plant. IIRC a lot of the steps are thermally labile equilibrium reactions. Layered on top of the molecular biology its a pretty complicated system and not all specimens are created equal even within a species.

Here's an online database that looks interesting.

http://nipgr.res.in/Essoildb/essoildb_2.html
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Karl K
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68503Post Karl K
Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:31 am

Don wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:28 pm
The biochemistry of terpenes has a lot of opportunity for variation based on things like temperature, sunlight and even age of the plant.
No doubt about it. I don't recall anything lemony about 'Ophelia', and nothing damasky about 'Harriny', even though they were growing in the same garden. But I also don't recall sniffing them at the same time of day or even on the same day. Lots of variables.

Then again, there was a rose (Pax?) that had a musk-like scent in the cool of the morning, but changed to Tea (or what I thought of as Tea, years ago) in the warmer afternoon of the same day. One major scent "burned off", leaving other components to volatilize as the temperature increased.

Oh, and humidity is another variable. Some scents carry well on a cool, damp day. 'Georg Arends' surprised me like that.
Karl

Don
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68504Post Don
Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:06 am

It pays to take time to smell the roses.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Karl K
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68505Post Karl K
Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:41 am

Don wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:06 am
It pays to take time to smell the roses.
And it's healthful. In addition to the immediate pleasures, there are some real health benefits.

When the carotenes are degraded (chopped into smaller pieces), those fragments are anti-oxidants. As we inhale the perfume, we get a snoot-full of the bits that are not fragrant ... yet. They are much more water soluble than the original carotenes, and somewhat more soluble than the oxidized and potently fragrant "rose ketones".

And so, the unoxidized carotene bits are inhaled along with the perfume, passed into the blood stream, and eventually are oxidized and settle into some fatty tissues that probably need the extra anti-oxidant boost.

Years ago, an Iranian woman who was cutting my hair told me that in her former country rose petals are used medicinally. Sounds good to me. Now if I could just find a doctor who would prescribe cheese cake with rose petal sauce, I'm sure my health would continue to be fine.
Karl

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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68506Post Karl K
Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:02 am

Don wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:38 pm
I'm interested in Lemon Delight for the prickles. I would like to see whether and how the hard and soft prickles express in combination. Mossing, being essentially up-regulation of and/or superposition of the glandular organs onto the prickles adds a third dimension. Composition of the essential oils adds another degree of complexity.
'Lemon Delight' is derived from the Perpetual (Damask) Mosses on the pollen parent's side (Goldmoss), while the seed parent (Fairy Moss) is descended from 'William Lobb'.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Vibert did some crossing between the two Moss lineages. 'Comtesse de Murinais' might be one of these ... and it is an ancestor to 'Goldmoss'.
Karl

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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68507Post Karl K
Sun Nov 04, 2018 1:41 pm

Don wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:38 pm
I'm interested in Lemon Delight for the prickles. I would like to see whether and how the hard and soft prickles express in combination. Mossing, being essentially up-regulation of and/or superposition of the glandular organs onto the prickles adds a third dimension. Composition of the essential oils adds another degree of complexity. Crossing it with Sericia would make things even more interesting.
Years ago, when I did not have access to a good collection of old roses, I wondered about the difference between the "hard" moss of the Damask group, and the "soft" moss of the Centifolias. But when moved to the San Jose area (within train distance) I soon learned that I was not at all clear on the concept. Turns out, there has been much mingling between the Centifolia-types and Damask-types, and there was not much difference to begin with.

Annals of Botany 97: 231–238, 2006
Chemical and Histochemical Analysis of ‘Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseux’, a Moss Rose of the Rosa x damascena Group
Caissard et al.
Collectively, these results do not reveal any difference between the moss sports of these two different cultivars. The same repeat-program of trichome development seems to occur in R. x damascena ‘Quatre Saisons Blanc Mousseux’ and R. x centifolia ‘muscosa’ in full bloom.
http://booksc.xyz/s/?q=Chemical+and+his ... +group&t=0

This is analogous to the "phyllomania", trichomes spontaneously becoming tiny leaves, that has turned up repeatedly among Begonia hybrids. Maybe we could call the moss trait "trichomomania'.

The following image shows how little difference there is beteen the 'Perpetual White" (B-D) and the Centifolia Moss (F-G) Aside from color (and scale of the pictures), they are about the same.
Image

'Mousseux du Japon' is probably the mossiest of the mosses. It even has moss on its prickles. Can you imagine a hybrid between such an oddity and a Pteracantha like this?
Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... n_Rose.jpg

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