Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

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henry kuska
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Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68336Post henry kuska
Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:28 pm

Title: "Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles"

See:

http://journal.ashspublications.org/con ... l.pdf+html

Karl K
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68441Post Karl K
Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:39 pm

I still remember being told, many years ago, that a hybrid cannot inherit anything that was not already present in the parents.

Much has been learned since then. And even if we only allow that no new genes will be found (not a safe bet), there still can be a host of new substances.

Inspired by this paper, I went a-googling and found this interesting bit;

Biotechnology in Flavor Production pp. 53-54 (2016)
By Daphna Havkin-Frenkel, Nativ Dudai

Basil is also a rich source of genes that may be useful for transformation into other plant species for the modification of aroma. For example, the GES gene from basil has been used to transform tomato (Davidovich-Rikanati et al. 2007). The volatiles isolated from the transgenic fruit were markedly different from those isolated from non-transgenic control fruit. The components citral, geranial, and neral were present at six times the levels seen in the controls. In addition, owing to the action of endogenous enzymes on geraniol, some geraniol derivatives, such as citronellal, citronellyl acetate, geranyl acetate, and rose oxide, were found only in the transgenic fruit. These results indicate that the addition of a single new gene in a biosynthetic pathway may result in unexpected products owing to the conversion of excess substrate by endogenous enzymes. Many plant enzymes can act on numerous substrates, including some substrates that are not normally present. For example, Dudai et al. (2000) found that germinating wheat seeds were able to metabolize exogenously applied monoterpenes, even though the wheat seeds themselves did not contain any monoterpenes.
https://books.google.com/books?id=SAL9C ... e&q&f=true

Don
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68443Post Don
Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:46 pm

Picking on Mendel - I smell fish bait, or at least phenylpropanoids. Your argument reduces to how you define "already present". Plenty of traits lack expression in one generation but get esspressoed in the next with no new gene involved.I just read somewhere that 80% or so of plant genomes are transposons, for starters.

What else you got?
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Karl K
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68444Post Karl K
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:10 am

To be clear, I was referring to what I was taught back in the '60s, a century after Mendel did his writing. Aside from that I was merely giving an intro into what I think is an interesting topic.

For example, where do we find a species rose with a lemon scent? We do find lemon in the scent of some cultivated roses: 'Intrigue' combines lemon with "old rose" in its purple blooms, and Moore's 'Lemon Delight' has it in its moss.

On the other hand, one parent may "contribute" the lack of a critical enzyme, while the other provides a substrate that is no longer transformed into something else. That is how the yellow Tea-Noisettes end up with more color than the yellow Teas.

Don
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68450Post Don
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:52 pm

I'm with you on the concept.

>> That is how the yellow Tea-Noisettes end up with more color than the yellow Teas.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11493&p=16674&hilit=anna+bo#p16674

>> Moore's 'Lemon Delight' has it in its moss.

I have been trying for a decade to get a copy of Lemon Delight to cross with my mossed glutinosa f1's that have retained their pine scent. Not only does Lemon Delight apparently express lemonene but it is one of the very few, two maybe, hybrids between a hard moss and a soft moss. I think Burling is trying to root a copy for me but if you or anyone else know where I can please let me know.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Karl K
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68456Post Karl K
Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:29 am

And it's not just novel substances that can show up in hybrids. Novel traits are also seen. Aside from Griesel (1966), these reports were published before I was born, in plenty of time to be mentioned in biology textbooks. But when I was in high school, the textbook publishers were still pushing the old "modern synthesis" junk -- the curious notion that evolution proceeds by an endless series of random gene mutations moving smoothly from one species to another, while leaving no trace of the intermediacy.

Vilmorin's Argemone Hybrids (1913)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Argemone/Argemone.html
F1 uniform; F2 included two types of doubling as well as a few polycephalic plants.

Pfitzer: Improving tuberous begonias, gladioli and Salvia (1911)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Pfitze ... r1911.html
Double-flowered tuberous begonias appeared among hybrid offspring of two single-flowered species.

Johnson: Flathead Lake Penstemon (1951)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Johnso ... n1951.html
Everblooming natural hybrid of two once-blooming species

Griesel: Photoperiod and Cestrum (1966)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Griese ... m1966.html
Day-neutral (everblooming) species crossed with a long-day/long-short-day relative. Among F2 offspring there was a short-day plant. "The above data suggest the presence of 2 independent genes or gene groups controlling floral primordia initiation in C. nocturnum."
Thus, there was no "gene for everblooming".

Francis: Double Seeding Petunias (1915)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Franci ... unias.html
The original double-flowered petunia lacked style and ovary, and was thus unable to bear seeds. After Mrs. Francis used pollen from a double petunia on Grandiflora-type garden varieties, all heck broke loose. Some later generation plants were female fertile/male sterile. Others were double and fully fertile. And one plant had single, perfect-looking flowers that were sterile.

Smith: Begonia phyllomaniaca (1919)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Begoni ... a1919.html
Begonia prolifera, sprouting tiny leaves on the surface of its stems and leaves, was displayed in the mid-19th century, but without any information as to its origin. The peculiarity was duplicated by Ducharte (1887) in a hybrid of B. incarnata x B. lucida. Bateson (1913) also found the trait in hybrids of B. heracleifolia x B. polyantha. The B. prolifera of De Candolle (1859) was something else.

Lotsy: Snapdragon Hybrids (1916)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/LotsyS ... s1916.html
Antirrhinum glutinosum x A. magus; one F2 specimen bore flowers resembling Rhinanthus rather than Antirrhinum.

Plazbo
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Re: Compound Identification of Selected Rose Species and Cultivars: an Insight to Petal and Leaf Phenolic Profiles

Post: # 68457Post Plazbo
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:25 pm

Don wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:52 pm
I have been trying for a decade to get a copy of Lemon Delight to cross with my mossed glutinosa f1's that have retained their pine scent. Not only does Lemon Delight apparently express lemonene but it is one of the very few, two maybe, hybrids between a hard moss and a soft moss. I think Burling is trying to root a copy for me but if you or anyone else know where I can please let me know.
I've read that, it's the reason I got it this year (well 3ish months ago)....I'm not convinced. There's a scent (not strong) to the moss but I wouldn't call it lemon, maybe my plant just isn't mature enough yet, first flowering was today. I put a bunch of feotida bicolour pollen on it, it's glandular bits have a strong distinctly not pine/plant/pepper smell...may be interesting.

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