R. bracteata x Carefree Copper

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RBaxter
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R. bracteata x Carefree Copper

Post: # 68307Post RBaxter
Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:40 am

R. bracteata is so distantly related to the rest of our roses we all know that it is a tough nut to crack.

Today I harvested a few hips of R. bracteata x Carefree Copper pollen. (thanks again Dr. D)

They “felt promising” as in the hip flesh felt softer and riper than the few same age open pollinated R. bracteata hips that I had marked nearby for comparison.

Question – Was that my imagination and/or statistical error due to small sample size, or could the pollen parent affect the hip flesh on such a distant cross? Maybe through biochemical signaling from the embryo?

Obviously, I’m not all up to snuff on how the plant hip works. I’m a mammal, although as many times that I’ve pricked myself I may have a bit of rose DNA in me by now…

Baxter
Katy TX Zone 9A

Karl K
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Re: R. bracteata x Carefree Copper

Post: # 68313Post Karl K
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:21 pm

Baxter,
I don't know of any study in roses regarding the influence of pollen parent on hip/seed ripening, but I have read of examples in other families.

Jour. Roy. Hort. Soc. 21: 442-48 (1898)
Notes on Some Curiosities of Orchid Breeding
C. C. Hurst
(quoting T. L. Mead in Orchid Review, 4(47): 326. 1896)
Laelia anceps pollen seems invariably to cut down time needed to ripen pods of the Cattleya labiata group by about six months; while the pollen of C. labiata does not appreciably lengthen the time needed by L. anceps pods to ripen .... Broughtonia sanguinea, which, both with its own and with foreign pollen, ripens its seeds in one-and-a-half to two months, has power to quicken the ripening of C. Bowringiana, with which it gave good seed in eight-and-a-half months."
https://books.google.com/books?id=tn0hA ... &q&f=false

I have no idea how these orchids would respond to a mixture of pollen.

Karl K
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Re: R. bracteata x Carefree Copper

Post: # 68314Post Karl K
Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:15 am

I found another example of the pollen parent influencing the ripening time, this time for dates. According to the report, pollen from Phoenix humilis hastened ripening by 20 days, enough for the dates to ripen before the monsoon rains came.

Similar field studies were carried out at Government Experimental Garden, Lyallpur during the years 1960 and 1961. The pollens of four male species as said earlier were used only on one female variety, Hilliawi for this purpose. The conclusions drawn from the data regarding sugars affected by different pollens were that there was a definite effect on the fruit. The fruit produced with P. Humilis had developed sugars more rapidly as compared to fruit from other pollens during the same period of development. The fruit from P. humilis attained 37.78% total sugar by July 15 while in fruit of other pollens this much quantity of total sugar was not even attained by August 1. The significant difference was noted in the amount of non-reducing sugars. In the mature fruit of P. humilis these sugars were 13.56% while in fruits of other pollens these sugars were 5-6%. This high rate of non-reducing sugars is the contributing factor in hastening maturity of date fruit.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/KKing/Pollen/Pa ... s1968.html

RBaxter
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Re: R. bracteata x Carefree Copper

Post: # 68316Post RBaxter
Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:30 am

Thanks for the link, I learned a bit more.

I think next year I will restrict my pollen source to one, pollinate as many as I can on the same day of the week, and then harvest hips on an arbitrary weekly basis based on time since pollination. Maybe that strategy will increase the likelihood of one harvest successfully germinating.

I'm no longer looking to go forward past F1 at all. Given R. bracteata's nasty traits, I'm after an absolutely sterile, tough as nails, remontant, tremendously dense, perimeter defense or cluster habitat rose, and if I can manage to get better blooms and bloom life all the better.

An evergreen, deer proof, ranch rose that would give quail and other wildlife a place to hide under is needed. Hedgerows are sorely missed by a lot of critters these days. R. bracteata, was brought to Texas for this purpose, but unfortunately, it spread via seed and is now an unwanted, nearly indestructible invasive.

Baxter
Katy TX Zone 9A

Karl K
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Re: R. bracteata x Carefree Copper

Post: # 68317Post Karl K
Wed Sep 12, 2018 2:13 pm

RBaxter wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:30 am
An evergreen, deer proof, ranch rose that would give quail and other wildlife a place to hide under is needed. Hedgerows are sorely missed by a lot of critters these days. R. bracteata, was brought to Texas for this purpose, but unfortunately, it spread via seed and is now an unwanted, nearly indestructible invasive.

Baxter
Rosa bracteata is tempting and puzzling. 'Alba Odorata' makes a fine climbing plant: healthy leaves and loads of buds. Alas, the blooms do not open well in Santa Clara, CA. That's where I saw it.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pict ... orata.html

Then there is 'Mermaid'. Wow! Always gorgeous, healthy and free blooming. As a ground-cover, it holds its flowers up. As a climber, it hangs down enough to bring some blooms into reach. It's very impressive.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pict ... rmaid.html

So, here is my question: How can these plants be such vigorous climbers? HelpMeFind describes the species as, "Height of up to 8' (up to 245 cm). Width of up to 8' (up to 245 cm)." 'Mermaid beats that hands down.

I think the everblooming habit of R. bracteata is of a different character (i.e., different genes) than the everblooming habit of the Tea/China group. The China-type blooming habit (flowering at the tip of each growth) appears to be recessive to the Bracteata-type. Thus, 'Mermaid' reverts to the climbing habit of its Gigantea ancestry, while gaining that Bracteata-type rebloom.

Much the same thing happens with the Noisettes. For instance, 'Marechal Niel' climbs and reblooms like a Noisette, while being heterozygous for China-type rebloom. 'Souv. de Pierre Notting' [Maréchal Niel x Maman Cochet] and 'Virginia' [Safrano x Maréchal Niel], for example, are classified as Teas because of their growth habits. Other offspring have been reblooming climbers.

Soupert and Notting (1896) wrote of their cross, Maréchal Niel x Madame Chédanne Guinoisseau: "... in April 1893 we were surprised to see that a hip was developing admirably and gave us five beautiful seeds in November, two of which sprouted after a fortnight. One gave birth to a sarmentose plant like the rose-mother, the other to a dwarf stocky shrub as the rose-father Madame Chédanne Guinoisseau."

Moore took the Bracteata hybrids into a second generation, at least. I have not seen his 'Muriel' [R. bracteata x Guinée], but I think I have pictures of a massively armed Bracteata-Moss. I'll have to check.
Karl
ps: I checked. What I photographed as an unnamed Bracteata-Moss is probably Moore's 'Fakir's Delight'. I have pics of buds, but no flowers. Just a vague recollection that the flowers were yellowish.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pict ... light.html

Some of Moore's others to consider, just to see how Bracteata combines with various cultivars.
Fakir's Delight (Little Darling x Lemon Delight) x (Seedling x Out of Yesteryear)
Muriel (Rosa bracteata x Guinée)
Out of Yesteryear (Sequoia Gold x Muriel)
Out of the Night (Yellow Jewel × Out of Yesteryear)
Precious Dream (Orangeade x Out of Yesteryear)

Lens provided a couple of attractive selections. I prefer 'White Surprise' because the leaves are a bit glossier and have a golden sparkle that provides a nice background for the gleaming white flowers. 'Pink Surprise' might be more appealing if the flowers were not so pale.
White Surprise (R. bracteata x R. rugosa rubra)
Pink Surprise (R. bracteata x R. rugosa 'La Rosée')

The Bracteata-Rugosa hybrids are vigorous, but don't sprawl like 'Mermaid'. There are other Rugosa hybrids that might be tried, such as 'Schneezwerg', 'Belle Poitevine', 'Germanica', 'Hansa'.

RBaxter
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Re: R. bracteata x Carefree Copper

Post: # 68321Post RBaxter
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:43 am

Down here where bracteata is invasive it's not truly remontant. It has a late starting, fairly long blooming period, with a continual scattering of blooms afterward. Every bloom seems to make a hip, so I suppose if someone was brave enough to continually deadhead one it might be a true repeater. As alien as it is to the rest of the roses, whatever remontancy it has, could well be from a different pathway.

I'm amazed that anyone has gone past F1 with it. I'll settle for sterile and hopefully non-running F1 crosses if I'm lucky.

It is an evil monster.

Here is a photo for scale of the one I pollinated this year. Its base is at her feet.

bracteata.jpg
Katy TX Zone 9A

Karl K
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Re: R. bracteata x Carefree Copper

Post: # 68333Post Karl K
Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:28 am

RBaxter wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:43 am
I'm amazed that anyone has gone past F1 with it. I'll settle for sterile and hopefully non-running F1 crosses if I'm lucky.
I haven't seen the species, only a few of the hybrids. I suppose some folks are hoping to "crack" Bracteata so that a few desirable traits can be shaken loose and slipped into garden hybrids. Hope springs eternal.
Karl

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