Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

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philip_la
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68143Post philip_la
Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:05 pm

Rob, Kimberly is intriguing. I'm germinating my first o.p. Woodsii's and excited at the prospect of working with such. If you ever get your hands on that Louis Riel you're seeking, I'm thinking there's a match made in heaven. (I wonder if LR's caninae meiosis wouldn't be largely broken down after such a cross? That would make for a fun tetraploid seedling to play with!)

Andre, I get blanda and nitida confused sometimes (One's shining, the other is smooth...) Have you ever worked with nitida? If I thought it wouldn't melt down here, it's an appealing species, IMO. I once saw it growing along the St. Lawrence among feral rugosas without knowing what it was. I collected some hips, but no germinations thus far, and little hope of keeping any alive here in Central Texas... (We hit 109 yesterday, and quite dry...)

Have you seen the other species in person? A thornless species has a certain appeal...
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68315Post Karl K
Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:49 am

Regel (1881) suggested that Rosa nitida is the North American version of R. rugosa.
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/ite ... 6/mode/1up
And Boulenger (1937) found little to distinguish R. blanda from R. cinnamomea.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1937.html

That should give some idea of the affinities.

Fernald (1918) drew attention to some species (or local endemics) that are closely allied to R. blanda, but are adapted to alkaline soil, rather than acidic.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1918.html

philip_la
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68346Post philip_la
Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:31 pm

Hmm... I'm not sure about those affinities really. I think I've read (and seen) that nitida is a rose of near bog-like conditions while I think of rugosa as being a sandy, somewhat drought-tolerant species. (I know nothing, really, of the other two species.) I admittedly saw the nitida growing in the vicinity of feral rugosas, and I wish I had taken note of proximity to waters in the beach/estuarine locations where I was exploring. The presumed nitidas weren't in bloom, whereas the rugosas of course where cycling in and out of bloom.
It sounds like, if I'm going to attempt to keep a nitida going in my central TX garden, it might need to be well-watered in a pot with a peaty soil, 'cuz our native dirt sure ain't gonna do it. I think the rugosas resent our alkaline soil as well, however, and have never tried to grow a straight species rugosa. I'm wondering, if I *were* to get them happy enough to bloom, what heat and alkaline-tolerant plants I should immediately turn to for crosses.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68349Post Karl K
Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:23 pm

philip_la wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:31 pm
Hmm... I'm not sure about those affinities really. I think I've read (and seen) that nitida is a rose of near bog-like conditions while I think of rugosa as being a sandy, somewhat drought-tolerant species. (I know nothing, really, of the other two species.) I admittedly saw the nitida growing in the vicinity of feral rugosas, and I wish I had taken note of proximity to waters in the beach/estuarine locations where I was exploring. The presumed nitidas weren't in bloom, whereas the rugosas of course where cycling in and out of bloom.
Philip,
When I went digging into the history of the very hardy and drought resistant "Russian Rugosas", I was surprised to learn that the whole group originated from seedlings raised around St. Petersburg, Russia, from seeds that had been collected in a Japanese garden. Furthermore, most of the "Japanese Rugosas" are descended from the same lot of seed, but many were raised in more congenial environments, such as Belgium. These, generally, are not so tolerant of heat, cold, and drought.

To put it another way, I am pretty sure that I have never seen a genuine Rosa rugosa Thunb., which is a once-bloomer that usually bears solitary flowers, though some specimens have paired blossoms. The species (as I understand it) is very thirsty.

There must have been some hybridization way back, possibly with R. davurica or something similar.

I agree, though, that R. nitida is not likely to be a useful parent in hot, dry regions ... such Central TX, or southern, inland California, such as I am now enjoying. The high today is a mere 88F, now that Autumn is upon us.

Karl

philip_la
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68352Post philip_la
Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:27 am

Interesting, Karl. I knew there were alleged differences, but didn't know the extent of such.

I wonder how the related, tetraploid R. multibracteata compares in terms of cultivation, etc.. I've considered trying to seek that one out, but suspect it would be a bust in my climate. Still, I rather like the idea of starting with a tetraploid pseudo-rugosa...
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68358Post Karl K
Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:30 am

philip_la wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:27 am
I wonder how the related, tetraploid R. multibracteata compares in terms of cultivation, etc.. I've considered trying to seek that one out, but suspect it would be a bust in my climate. Still, I rather like the idea of starting with a tetraploid pseudo-rugosa...
R. multibracteata is more closely allied with R. Willmottiae and, presumably, R. macrophylla. I saw R. multibracteata at the San Jose Heritage garden, but it did not strike me as having any particular interest as a breeder. Summer temps in San Jose can get into the 90s.

If it interests you at all, you could get a leg up with 'Cerise Bouquet' (Rosa multibracteata x Crimson Glory). It's a once-blooming monster, but you'd be just a generation away from rebloom.
Karl

philip_la
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68380Post philip_la
Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:54 am

I don't know that I honestly want it, but I did put Cerise Bouquet on my cuttings exhange wish list some time back. I'm not sure about Crimson Glory as a parent, honestly. Disease pressures are pretty high in my neck of the woods, and CG doesn't have a stellar reputation in the dept.. Combine that with my limited realty, and I'm just not convinced that's the plant for me at this juncture, but thanks for the suggestion. I've never seen multibracteata first-hand, so you are helping me to just leave that idea behind! LOL.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

philip_la
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68381Post philip_la
Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:55 am

I don't know that I honestly want it, but I did put Cerise Bouquet on my cuttings exhange wish list some time back. I'm not sure about Crimson Glory as a parent, honestly. Disease pressures are pretty high in my neck of the woods, and CG doesn't have a stellar reputation in the dept.. Combine that with my limited realty, and I'm just not convinced that's the plant for me at this juncture, but thanks for the suggestion. I've never seen multibracteata first-hand, so you are helping me to just leave that idea behind! LOL.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68383Post Karl K
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:04 pm

philip_la wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:55 am
I don't know that I honestly want it, but I did put Cerise Bouquet on my cuttings exchange wish list some time back. I'm not sure about Crimson Glory as a parent, honestly. Disease pressures are pretty high in my neck of the woods, and CG doesn't have a stellar reputation in the dept.
Philip,
I understand your doubts about CG. One of the more endearing qualities of CG was its ability to combine successfully with other varieties and species. Not all other varieties have been so successful. For instance, Wulff (1954) wrote, "Mr. Kordes succeeded in crossing his 'Baby Château' with Rosa multibracteata, but the double flowers of the hybrid did not open at all and produced no or only a few anthers."

Another overlooked virtue of 'Crimson Glory' is its petal width.

Alas, it does not seem to do as well in heat as some of its ancestors, e.g., 'Mme. Caroline Testout' and 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam'. The latter two (assuming they were correctly identified) did very well at the San Jose Heritage garden, while 'Crimson Glory' did not flourish.

Even so, it has a place in my heart beside some other imperfect beauties, such as 'Sterling Silver' and 'Kordes' Perfecta'.

Karl
Last edited by Karl K on Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jbergeson
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68384Post jbergeson
Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:28 pm

A good rose breeding friend recently gifted me with a Crimson Glory, which is heading into it's first unprotected Zone 3b winter.

So I'm glad to hear your comments on it...lots of descendants.

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68385Post Karl K
Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:31 pm

I can't find a note on it, but I vaguely recall that someone (Shepherd?) crossed 'Crimson Glory' with Rosa hugonis.

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68387Post Karl K
Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:57 pm

'Gloire des Rosomanes' is not a species, but I think it deserves more attention. Moore did a bit with it: 'Sierra Snowstorm' [Gloire des Rosomanes x Dorothy Perkins], which was a parent of 'Renae' [Étoile Luisante x Sierra Snowstorm]. 'Renae' is not reliably hardy, but is otherwise

'Gloire des Rosomanes' was used in the HP days, but has been mostly ignored since then. The color is bright red, but some blooms open 'Old Blush' pink, and a rare bloom is velvety crimson. And sometimes I saw a glint of scarlet that made me wonder what might come from GdR crossed with 'Tropicana' or 'Trumpeter'.

'Gloire des Rosomanes' is also uncertain in its growth/bloom habit. When cut to the ground, it comes up blooming. But when allowed to continue on its own, it becomes more concerned with vegetation than flowers. Donald Beaton (the old Scotch gardener from Inverness, as he called himself) found that the way to use it as a hedge is to set the cuttings about a foot apart, and then cut down alternate plants in the early summer. That is, cut 1, 3, 5, 7, etc. this year, and 2, 4, 6, 8, the next. The older plants would provide early bloom, and the first year plants would then continue strongly into winter.

GdR can produce "dwarf" plants like 'Général Jacqueminot' and 'Géant des Batailles', so it should do as well with Floribundas and HTs.

roseseek
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68390Post roseseek
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:21 pm

GdR, when crossed with Pink Petticoat, Cal Poly and 1-72-1 made HUGE, thorny, once-flowering singles which were all culled due to room.
Kim
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Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68392Post Karl K
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:54 pm

roseseek wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:21 pm
GdR, when crossed with Pink Petticoat, Cal Poly and 1-72-1 made HUGE, thorny, once-flowering singles which were all culled due to room.
Well, we certainly haven't unraveled all the mysteries of plant breeding. Why would GdR be so much more cooperative with HPs?

This reminds me of what Van Fleet wrote about 'Mme Norbert Levavasseur' back in 1907:
A number of cross-bred seedlings, grown from Baby Rambler, are disappointing in that none turns out to be constant-blooming, though largely pollenized with ever-blooming kinds. All came near to the Crimson Rambler type, regardless of the habit of the pollen parent, and will probably develop into tall-climbing annual bloomers. When pollen of Baby Rambler, which has the continuous flowering Gloire des Polyanthes as one parent, is used on the stigmas of annual-blooming Ramblers of Wichuraiana hybrids, very dwarf ever-blooming plants result in large proportion, and something may perhaps be done to develop a useful group, of which Baby Rambler will likely remain the type.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... r1907.html

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68594Post Karl K
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:12 pm

I encountered an interesting bit of information in The plant introductions of Reginald Farrer (1930).
Rosa multibracteata Hemsl. and Wilson.
"A very elegant and first-class shrub of 6 feet, with a profusion of sweet rosy flowers, followed  by lucent scarlet hips. Cliffs and shingles of the Da-Tung River about Chiao Tor only." F. 544.

In cultivation this form has proved poor and straggling. However, as Rosa Farreri appeared as a stray among the seedlings, we cannot complain.

Rosa Farreri became popular in England (at least) as the Threepenny Bit Rose, but so far as I know was not used from breeding. To the contrary, R. multibracteata was tried by both Wilhelm Kordes and Mathias Tantau, Sen.

Tantau had more success, crossing the species with Kordes' 'Crimson Glory' to produce 'Cerise Bouquet'. This is a pretty but awkward variety that went on to make a notable contribution to modern roses.

The "moral" of the story, so to speak, is that a pretty species that gains popularity and a cute popular name may be less useful to the breeder than one that ls "poor and straggling".
Karl

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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 69552Post semiplenus
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:34 pm

andre carl wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:19 pm
Three species I am intrigued with and don't know much about are R. blanda, R. gymnocarpa, and R. webbiana microphylla. First 2 I can find commercially in the U.S. but the last one is a bit difficult to locate here.
Andre, I have some extra gymnocarpa that I collected in Plumas County, CA this past fall that is yours if you'll take it. I've germinated three from this lot and won't need any more.

This offer is good for anyone else who happens to be interested. PM me.
Mike
SoCal 10b Sunset 23

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 69636Post Karl K
Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:38 pm

The Banksiaes are in bloom in my area, so I wanted to make another pitch for them.

Anyone who has inhaled the delicious violet perfume of R. banksiae banksiae will appreciate what a fine addition this scent could be to what we already have. And R. banksiae lutea may be our best shot at a yellow dwarf Polyantha-type plant.

Isaac Oldaker, gardener to Sir and Lady Banks, offered his plan for forcing R. banksiae.

"I also discovered, this season, a method of making small plants of the Rosa Banksiae blow well in pots, after the whole blossom of the trees against the wall had ceased, and as this is likely to be successful, it is without doubt worthy of notice.

"In the beginning of February, I put several small plants of the Rose in pots, on the back bed, in the house in which I forced flowers for Lady BANKS, cutting the plants down to within a few buds of their roots. The heat of the house was from fifty-four to sixty degrees of FAHRENHEIT'S thermometer. The plants made strong shoots, and by the middle of March, their young branches were about eighteen inches long: at this time they were taken out of the flower-house and placed under a Melon-frame, the glasses of which were taken off in the day, and only put on at night, to exclude frosts: no heat being applied to them in this situation, the change of climate operated so as not only to check their growth, but to put them artificially into a state of rest, as in the winter; the young wood having been previously well ripened with the effect of the summer warmth, they broke out into blossom by the end of July, and most of them were completely covered with flowers."
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... e1822.html

This plan may be useful in England, for folks who are blessed with greenhouses. I wonder if the same result might be had with a retired refrigerator. Pot the plants as Oldaker described, cut back, let shoots grow to the desired length, then chill in the fridge set to a low (but not freezing) temperature.

The advantage of this approach is that flowering R. banksiae could be made available for breeding at any time needed. Cross the yellow form with 'Sunshine' or 'Tip-Top', for example, or the white with a white or pale Tea, China, etc.

roseseek
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 69639Post roseseek
Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:24 pm

Yes, Banksiaes are spectacular. In all the MANY years of haunting them, I have never found sexual parts in either double forms. I have found self set hips on lutea and every one of them have been empty. I've never found any on Banksiae banksiae. I haven't had Normalis in quite some time, but I had never found any self set hips on it. I also grow General Vallejo's Yellow Banksiae, which is like Lutea on steroids and there are no sexual parts I can find. I do have Lutescens and I have not only raised self set seed but used its pollen on MANY seed parents, with a few successes. I've also tried pollinating on Lutescens, with no results to show from it. I don't hold seed tables over a second year. Unless they germinate the first year, they aren't kept. I've had three Banksiae lutescens selfs germinate within the first four months of planting. One was quite weak and succumbed to mildew rather quickly. Two are very vigorous and one has flowered. It's a much narrower, pointed yellow bud opening to a wider single, yellow flower with fewer stamen and more petaloids. Not really "double", but more petaloids than "single". I have obtained crosses with Purezza pollen. I have also raised hybrids between Cal Poly, Golden Horizon, Jim's L56-1 and Lynnie using Basye's Amphidiploid 86-3 (Banksiae X Laevigata) pollen. 86-3's seeds (VERY few set) don't germinate well for me so I don't try using it for seed.

Nessie [(R. Gigantea X R. Brunonii) X Mlle Cecile Brunner] X Purezza, flowering last summer in its first year.
DSCN1854.JPG
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

MidAtlas
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 69640Post MidAtlas
Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:14 pm

Karl, wouldn't it just be easier to freeze pollen and pollinate when the mother is blooming naturally? That would be a heck of an effort when the alternative is so much easier and more space-efficient!

Whatever its exact parentage was, I once had a plant of 'Letizia Bianca' and it didn't do much for me in terms of fragrance or disease resistance--I'm guessing that you might want to stick to a fragrant crossing partner if you're attempting to capitalize on the violet-reminiscent scent of R. banksiae in a breeding program. Seeing the rather high foliar disease susceptibility of R. x fortuneana in the Mid-Atlantic (not to mention RRD!) is also a bit sobering, and it is possible that the species' health breaks down quickly upon dilution with foreign genes. Has anyone considered chromosome doubling?

Stefan

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 69645Post Karl K
Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:48 pm

When I took my dog out for his crack-of-dawn walk, I picked some flowers from a double yellow Banksiae growing down the street. When I got home and had a close look, I found no stamens at all. I can't tell whether the styles are there at all. I really need a dissecting microscope to do this kind of thing.

I've also organized the info I have on Rosa banksiae. One thing is clear enough, fertility varies ... even with the singles. Boursault raised the first European hybrid, apparently using the double white as seed parent. Other Banksiae variants or hybrids turned up now and then, and in 1868 Signor Baroni found some flowers with two or three stamens. He used these to pollinated flowers on the same plant, resulting in three seedlings: one yellow flowered and two white flowered. All singles.

Now I wonder whether the double white Banksiae is a chimera.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... iblio.html

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