Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

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philip_la
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68143Post philip_la
Tue Jul 24, 2018 2:05 pm

Rob, Kimberly is intriguing. I'm germinating my first o.p. Woodsii's and excited at the prospect of working with such. If you ever get your hands on that Louis Riel you're seeking, I'm thinking there's a match made in heaven. (I wonder if LR's caninae meiosis wouldn't be largely broken down after such a cross? That would make for a fun tetraploid seedling to play with!)

Andre, I get blanda and nitida confused sometimes (One's shining, the other is smooth...) Have you ever worked with nitida? If I thought it wouldn't melt down here, it's an appealing species, IMO. I once saw it growing along the St. Lawrence among feral rugosas without knowing what it was. I collected some hips, but no germinations thus far, and little hope of keeping any alive here in Central Texas... (We hit 109 yesterday, and quite dry...)

Have you seen the other species in person? A thornless species has a certain appeal...
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68315Post Karl K
Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:49 am

Regel (1881) suggested that Rosa nitida is the North American version of R. rugosa.
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/ite ... 6/mode/1up
And Boulenger (1937) found little to distinguish R. blanda from R. cinnamomea.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1937.html

That should give some idea of the affinities.

Fernald (1918) drew attention to some species (or local endemics) that are closely allied to R. blanda, but are adapted to alkaline soil, rather than acidic.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1918.html

philip_la
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68346Post philip_la
Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:31 pm

Hmm... I'm not sure about those affinities really. I think I've read (and seen) that nitida is a rose of near bog-like conditions while I think of rugosa as being a sandy, somewhat drought-tolerant species. (I know nothing, really, of the other two species.) I admittedly saw the nitida growing in the vicinity of feral rugosas, and I wish I had taken note of proximity to waters in the beach/estuarine locations where I was exploring. The presumed nitidas weren't in bloom, whereas the rugosas of course where cycling in and out of bloom.
It sounds like, if I'm going to attempt to keep a nitida going in my central TX garden, it might need to be well-watered in a pot with a peaty soil, 'cuz our native dirt sure ain't gonna do it. I think the rugosas resent our alkaline soil as well, however, and have never tried to grow a straight species rugosa. I'm wondering, if I *were* to get them happy enough to bloom, what heat and alkaline-tolerant plants I should immediately turn to for crosses.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68349Post Karl K
Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:23 pm

philip_la wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:31 pm
Hmm... I'm not sure about those affinities really. I think I've read (and seen) that nitida is a rose of near bog-like conditions while I think of rugosa as being a sandy, somewhat drought-tolerant species. (I know nothing, really, of the other two species.) I admittedly saw the nitida growing in the vicinity of feral rugosas, and I wish I had taken note of proximity to waters in the beach/estuarine locations where I was exploring. The presumed nitidas weren't in bloom, whereas the rugosas of course where cycling in and out of bloom.
Philip,
When I went digging into the history of the very hardy and drought resistant "Russian Rugosas", I was surprised to learn that the whole group originated from seedlings raised around St. Petersburg, Russia, from seeds that had been collected in a Japanese garden. Furthermore, most of the "Japanese Rugosas" are descended from the same lot of seed, but many were raised in more congenial environments, such as Belgium. These, generally, are not so tolerant of heat, cold, and drought.

To put it another way, I am pretty sure that I have never seen a genuine Rosa rugosa Thunb., which is a once-bloomer that usually bears solitary flowers, though some specimens have paired blossoms. The species (as I understand it) is very thirsty.

There must have been some hybridization way back, possibly with R. davurica or something similar.

I agree, though, that R. nitida is not likely to be a useful parent in hot, dry regions ... such Central TX, or southern, inland California, such as I am now enjoying. The high today is a mere 88F, now that Autumn is upon us.

Karl

philip_la
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68352Post philip_la
Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:27 am

Interesting, Karl. I knew there were alleged differences, but didn't know the extent of such.

I wonder how the related, tetraploid R. multibracteata compares in terms of cultivation, etc.. I've considered trying to seek that one out, but suspect it would be a bust in my climate. Still, I rather like the idea of starting with a tetraploid pseudo-rugosa...
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68358Post Karl K
Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:30 am

philip_la wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:27 am
I wonder how the related, tetraploid R. multibracteata compares in terms of cultivation, etc.. I've considered trying to seek that one out, but suspect it would be a bust in my climate. Still, I rather like the idea of starting with a tetraploid pseudo-rugosa...
R. multibracteata is more closely allied with R. Willmottiae and, presumably, R. macrophylla. I saw R. multibracteata at the San Jose Heritage garden, but it did not strike me as having any particular interest as a breeder. Summer temps in San Jose can get into the 90s.

If it interests you at all, you could get a leg up with 'Cerise Bouquet' (Rosa multibracteata x Crimson Glory). It's a once-blooming monster, but you'd be just a generation away from rebloom.
Karl

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