Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

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Warren
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68087Post Warren
Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:58 pm

Hybrid Rosa virginiana X Princesse du Ballet ( Hybrid Multiflora/ Hybrid Musk). Flowers well with very good fertility, foliage is excellent.
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Jwindha
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68088Post Jwindha
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:57 pm

Phillip,

I'm breeding specifically for the southeastern US, where blackspot is a huge problem. R. palustris, which will happily grow in standing water, is highly resistant to BS. Another thing I like about palustris are the long sepals and that the buds are covered in sticky glands that have a really nice scent. The flowers are lightly fragrant. If you do acquire it, make sure to give it plenty of room or contain it with a root barrier as it will sucker in every direction. While it can handle soggy soils, it will also grow in well-drained areas.


Kim, I love the foliage on 'Faith Whittlesey' x Rosa x Actii, it reminds me of sinowilsonii.

Warren, I really like your R.willmottiae X R.forrestiana! Nice.

-Jonathan
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R. palustris buds covered in sticky glands

Larry Davis
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68090Post Larry Davis
Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:59 pm

About R. palustris. I have little personal experience with it, though for decades I grew a plant that I brought from western PA that was probably it. I dug it out of a hillside bog there. May still be out in my wilderness though this year's drought may have done it in. Never got enough seed to get germination from my few attempted crosses.

However, I just planted out several dozen new germinations from seed that Jon Windham sent me last Dec. Probably he had 5 distinct clones in the lot and I pooled the ones that sprouted June 24= 5 + months in stratification. But some clones pop sooner than others so it is biased toward one or another. ONe of the fastest started sprouting a month earlier. Some are yet to begin. Won't have full data for another 6 months to a year. In the meantime, if you want half year seedlings next spring contact me at the e-mail address up above in the discussion of 13-1, or on another thread of R woodsii. I still have woodsii after sending some out this past spring if you'd like that one too.

philip_la
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68092Post philip_la
Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:25 am

Kim, I do like the look of that foliage. (Except for the ability to showcase a contrasting or complimenting bloom, I wonder if the average consumer ever even notices a roses foliage. I'm wondering when I started noticing/caring.)
Warren, you've got another beauty there as well. I definitely have R. carolinia or R. virginiana on my wishlist thanks to you. (Don't recall why, but I think I'm gunning for the southern species -- seems I read something that has me thinking something in its evolution might be more useful to my aspirations.)
Jonathan, have you been working with palustris for a while? I'm wondering what happens to that packed panicle in future F1's depending on the mating. As I say, R.p. was on my theoretical wishlist years ago when I lived in New Orleans, but I don't even recall what I learned about it at that time. I was wanting to attempt to cross it with something comparably xeric, but was very new to all this, and had no real knowledge of what I might select to mate it, nor why.
Larry, if there is some way I can repay you, I might take you up on that. Thank you, sir.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Larry Davis
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68095Post Larry Davis
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:37 pm

The postage is only 7. 50 or so for a small priority mail package. By winter these will not be all that big. A couple dozen easily fit inside. Pot them up, select the first to bloom, or one with fewest prickles, or best foliage or whatever. Blooms might take a couple years if they are like other species Ive grown. I don't know for sure but I guess that individual closes are self-fertile or the hip yield wouldn't have been so big in the Clemson area at different locations. For sure my rose from PA had not partners but ti produces hips. Just not one with germinable hips from tetraploids pollen donors. For me the interest was in winter hardiness. For you that's immaterial. SC is closer to LA than PA is in terms of latitude.

Warren
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68096Post Warren
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:22 pm

Thanks Jonathan the R. willmottiae X R forrestiana has been a blessing for me.
Thanks Phil, the Hybrid virginiana's do well when crossed with dioloids, this one is shaded by R tunquinensis and the Hybrid R. davidii's and grows very happy with those conditions.

Cheers Warren

srpshoy

Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68097Post srpshoy
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:31 am

What about the section of Spinosissimas known as the Scots roses? They are tetraploid, black spot resistant. David Austin, Knud Petersen, to name just two, are producing repeat flowering Spin hybrids.
Some of the Canadian Spin hybrids (a mix of ploidies) are producing remontant hybrids - Prairie Peace stands out.
Stephen

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68099Post Karl K
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:18 pm

Some of the Scots roses are already rebloomers: 'Doorenbos Selection', for example, blooms continuously. 'Ormiston Roy', grandparent of 'Golden Wings', is descended from 'Harison's Yellow' and inherited the bright yellow color. It reportedly reblooms some.

philip_la
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68102Post philip_la
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:47 am

Doorenbos' selection is one of which I have only learned this past year. It is also purportedly one of the more successful in the deep south, and definitely on my list to acquire at some juncture. Is it also tetraploid?

Stephen, I think a good number of Basye's roses have some altaica somewhere in their lineage, including Carefree Beauty. I've wondered how much they contributed to the overall health, or if cold-hardiness was the prominent feature for which they were used...

Warren, thanks for info on shade tolerance. That makes it more enticing.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

srpshoy

Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68103Post srpshoy
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:45 pm

Philip;
Can't remember where I read this but I believe I read that cold hardiness and black spot resistance were possibly "genetically" linked. I have no idea if that is verifiable but it is the reason I've invested in adding cold hardy roses to my middle GA zone 8b garden. I don't get enough cold to get Gallicas, Albas, and most Mosses to consistently bloom but Rugosa hybrids, Harison's Yellow, R. hugonis, xanthina, primula, and other members of the Pimp. family are doing well. Just added Prairie Peace, Madeline's Choice, and some other hybrids descended from Altaica. They are hanging in there in this pretty hot summer.
Stephen

andre carl
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68104Post andre carl
Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:19 pm

Three species I am intrigued with and don't know much about are R. blanda, R. gymnocarpa, and R. webbiana microphylla. First 2 I can find commercially in the U.S. but the last one is a bit difficult to locate here.

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68105Post Karl K
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:10 pm

srpshoy wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:45 pm
Philip;
Can't remember where I read this but I believe I read that cold hardiness and black spot resistance were possibly "genetically" linked. I have no idea if that is verifiable but it is the reason I've invested in adding cold hardy roses to my middle GA zone 8b garden.
Stephen
Black spot resistance is found in some roses that are not especially cold hardy:

American Rose Annual, 16: 45-51 (1931)
Breeding Better Roses
Rev. George M. A. Schoener, Santa Barbara, Calif.
Only recently, Peter Lambert, the well-known German rosarian, asked the question: “Have you ever seen black-spot on R. bracteata, R. sempervirens, Cherokee?” He might well have asked also: “Have you ever seen mildew and rust or brown-canker on these species?” And still further, to these species he could have added R. gigantea, R. macrocarpa, the Banksia roses, and several species only found within the last thirty years, such as R. bodinieri Léveillé & Vaut; R. gentiliana, Léveillé & Vaut; R. adenoclada Léveillé; R. lucidissima Léveillé. All these newer species have more or less persistent, healthy foliage, glabrous on both surfaces. To these must be added several subspecies of R. gigantea, practically immune to those evils so prevalent upon the newer Hybrid Teas and Pernetianas, the two types mostly used in gardens and most abused by inbreeding. Because certain types of roses are nearly immune to these ravages it ought to be plain enough that through carefully guided breeding a gradual elimination of them is possible.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... h1931.html

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68106Post Karl K
Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:13 pm

srpshoy wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:45 pm
Philip;
Can't remember where I read this but I believe I read that cold hardiness and black spot resistance were possibly "genetically" linked. I have no idea if that is verifiable but it is the reason I've invested in adding cold hardy roses to my middle GA zone 8b garden.
Stephen
Black spot resistance is found in some roses that are not especially cold hardy:

American Rose Annual, 16: 45-51 (1931)
Breeding Better Roses
Rev. George M. A. Schoener, Santa Barbara, Calif.
Only recently, Peter Lambert, the well-known German rosarian, asked the question: “Have you ever seen black-spot on R. bracteata, R. sempervirens, Cherokee?” He might well have asked also: “Have you ever seen mildew and rust or brown-canker on these species?” And still further, to these species he could have added R. gigantea, R. macrocarpa, the Banksia roses, and several species only found within the last thirty years, such as R. bodinieri Léveillé & Vaut; R. gentiliana, Léveillé & Vaut; R. adenoclada Léveillé; R. lucidissima Léveillé. All these newer species have more or less persistent, healthy foliage, glabrous on both surfaces. To these must be added several subspecies of R. gigantea, practically immune to those evils so prevalent upon the newer Hybrid Teas and Pernetianas, the two types mostly used in gardens and most abused by inbreeding. Because certain types of roses are nearly immune to these ravages it ought to be plain enough that through carefully guided breeding a gradual elimination of them is possible.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... h1931.html

Warren
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68107Post Warren
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:56 pm

no more
Last edited by Warren on Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

roseseek
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68108Post roseseek
Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:59 pm

To provide an answer to part of the above question, yes, I have observed mildew on established, large Banksiae lutea numerous times. We had one at the Encino home which topped an enormous stand of Golden Bamboo. It grew through the stand and covered the top. People used to bang on the gate to ask HOW we got the bamboo to flower. Both existed on the ground water and received no supplemental irrigation other than rain (when that happened). The lutea flowered a long time in spring and often provided flushes several times throughout the year because of the climate. Between the water stress due to the bamboo competition and the constant bath of transpiration from the bamboo, that plant usually had rather heavily mildewed newer shoots. Add that Banksiae seedlings are EXTREMELY susceptible to mildew for a very long time, until they mature out of it (meaning they achieve sufficient root and top mass to resist it).
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

jbergeson
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68109Post jbergeson
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:30 pm

I remember reading in Raoul Robinson's "Return to Resistance" that vertical gene-for-gene resistance arises in seasonal climates where every spring is a new beginning in terms of infection, while temperate all-year climes gave rise to horizontal resistance since the infections could happen all year long. I'm not real clear on exactly why this happens. It could be why tropical roses like R. gigantea and R. laevigata have such excellent resistance while Ross Rambler, R. glauca and other hardies are total dogs. R. carolina and R. virginiana seem to have developed good horizontal resistance while maintaining pretty solid winter hardiness.

philip_la
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68110Post philip_la
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:09 am

I too was going to suggest, Stephen, that the generalization you mention *seems* counter-intuitive.

If I'm not mistaken, BS is a disease of warm wet climates, whereas for instance, mildew is more common in cooler humid (but less rainy) weather. It would seem then that roses of warmer wetter climates with longer growing seasons would, of necessity, have persistent foliage which is resistant to BS. Roses from more arid regions might be expected to drop their foliage at the first signs of stress -- to, for instance, preserve precious moisture in the event of extreme drought -- and would not require a cuticle with high fungus resistance. Montain species, from cooler humid regions, it seems to reason might be expected to be more resistant to mildew. I think this reasoning is moderately well born-out in reality. Banksias are often classed with Chinas, and as warmer, wetter region species, they are generally a bit mildew-prone in climates that are conducive to such. In the Gulf Coast regions, this is almost never noticed as the climate is generally not conducive to mildew. Banksias are considered to be essentially disease-free in that region, despite their propensity to mildew in cool coastal fog of CA, but if a Californian tells a Gulf Coaster of a disease-free rose, the said person in the SE should be highly skeptical. The cultivar might be a relative BS farm.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

philip_la
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68111Post philip_la
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:14 am

Joe, I think you are essentially correct, though I seem to recall that both you and I got chastised for using the terms vertical and horizontal to mean high-resistance to single strain, and multiple strain resistances respectively. ;-) (Okay, vert and horiz are a lot shorter to type! LOL)
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Karl K
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Re: Under-utilized species you feel might have merit

Post: # 68112Post Karl K
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:52 am

The story goes that Dr. Lammerts thought he had whipped the problem of BS. But when he moved his nursery from Livermore to the Watsonville area, his most resistant cultivars got the spots. Different climate, I suppose, and probably a different soil.

A woodland species, adapted to acidic soil and shade, will not be at its most resistant when forced to endure alkaline soil and full sun.

Another matter is the length of growing season. Some nutrients (minerals, proteins and such) are packed into the developing leaves and must last for as long as the leaves endure. A greater supply of nutrients allows a leaf to resist infections longer, but also makes it more attractive to herbivores. Trade-offs are all around.

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