Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

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philip_la
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Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67626Post philip_la
Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:31 pm

When I travel, and find species roses with hips I frequently collect some. I have heps from a trip near the Rocky Mountain Nat'l Park in CO that I presume to be woodsii. A scrappy little plant I found around a mountain lake, and topping out at around 18". No blooms, obviously, just ripe hips.
I also collected some hips in Santa Fe from apparently once-blooming shrubs which fit the description of R. arizonica, but bushes were much larger than those in CO, making hedges about as tall as I am. Both collections were late summer/early fall, different years. I'm getting some germinations now.

I wondered what (if anything) these species might contribute to a breeding program. I don't see a whole lot of interesting descendants on HMF, though admittedly I didn't look too deep... Thoughts/experiences?
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Don
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67627Post Don
Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:43 am

Their survival in the wild means 1.) they beat whatever diseases they and their ancestors have been exposed to and 2.) they are locally hardy. Whether you value those traits is up to you.

I have woodsii fenderlii that I got from Paul Barden a while ago. Although I do have a small number of seeds from a handful of crosses in the fridge I have never germinated them so I can't say anything about it as a breeder. I can say it is a very rustic plant with low stature and not a lot of vigor here on the Massachusetts border with Connecticut.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

jbergeson
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67630Post jbergeson
Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:40 am

I planted out five R. woodsii that I got from Lawyer Nurseries. They are very hardy, but the foliage gets some odd problems later in the summer that I'm concerned could pass on problems to the descendants. It also seems a little iffy in accepting foreign pollen, though I haven't tried it extensively.

My current darling diploid species is R. nitida - I'm impressed with my R. nitida's neat, shrubby habit and apparent horizontal resistance to leafspot. The foliage gets some spots on it but the leaves don't turn yellow and fall off and overall the plant remains attractive. It readily sets hips from modern pollen. Now if I could just get the seeds to germinate. I tried a longer warm stratification period this year and I hope that will increase germination.

philip_la
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67633Post philip_la
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:12 pm

The seed I collected in Colorado came from rather scrappy, and at the time, somewhat unattractive little plants, but clearly they were survivors, and on their way to dormancy. (I think it was early October, and they had already had some freezes.) The ones from Santa Fe area, on the other hand, made for some rather attractive hedges, having bronze-colored stems, ferny, matte, blue-green leaves of 9 leaflets, and crimson hips with long persistent sepals. (It was late August or early September in a mild climate as I recall) Perhaps the large Santa Fe specimens were the subspecies fendleri, rather than arizonica? At any rate, I was surprised to see the same species would presumably be assigned to these seemingly very different plants, and wondered how much of the variation was cultivation/climate vs subspecies.

I was inquiring as to their use because, as prevalent as the subspecies of woodsii are, I find very few hybrids out there having it (or as macounii) in their pedigree. As an apparent survivor, I was surprised not to find a number of seedlings/descendants in commerce.

I agree that nitida is an attractive plant. Many years ago I saw some along the St. Lawrence River, growing among some feral rugosas. I didn't see anything that looked to be a hybrid, oddly enough -- at least not to recognize it as such -- but remember being intrigued by the (unknown to me) rose with a narrow, glossy, and somewhat rugose leaf. I don't think I found any hips on those nitida to collect at the time, but I am in the process of (successfully) germinating some of the 7-yr-old rugosa seed from that same place.
Philip F.
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Don
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67635Post Don
Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:15 pm

>> 7-yr-old rugosa seed

How were they stored?
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

philip_la
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67636Post philip_la
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:31 pm

Poorly, to be honest. I think they probably spent *most* of that time as entire dry heps in the fridge. This winter, I soaked the heps in a very dilute solution containing roughly 5 parts H2O2 to one part cider vinegar (by which I mean, "parts" directly out of bottle, being I guess 3% and 5% solutions respectively) in a jar in fridge to reconstitute for several days to a week, cleaned and stratified again in some nitrate medium. The first germinations appeared inside of 2 months. I would hazard to say I'm getting about 10% germination, but hard to say since I didn't count seeds, several had pin-holes chewed through them by some insect, and I'm still getting add'l germinations after pulling the bag from the fridge again for a few days every two or three weeks. (My old M.O.: two months stratification followed by two weeks out, prick the germinating seeds and remainder thereafter two weeks in fridge, then several days out, over and again until it feels like time to quit -- kinda like listening for popcorn popping in microwave.)

I'm getting some other germinations from hips 3 years old, I'm happy to say. Fatherhood has put a damper on this hobby, and I thought some controlled crosses would be lost.

Interestingly, I'm even getting some germinations out of one set of OP hips that were sealed in a zip-lock without drying a few years ago, and which had rotted, and were still moist when I cleaned them. (Pretty good quality bag, apparently.)
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

philip_la
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67637Post philip_la
Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:41 pm

Peroxyacetic acid, btw, is an antimicrobial, hence the idea to use a little cider vinegar in addition to the peroxide. I figure acetic acid is probably in rotting fruit in the same family, and thus might also serve as a trigger for germination, though I have *nothing* to back that thinking up... I didn't use very much since I figured it might just as likely be toxic to embryos.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Don
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67639Post Don
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:12 pm

Interesting, thanks. I'm germinating a lot of 'leftovers' from as long ago as 2012 as I write this. These were all stored as cleaned seeds dried and refrigerated the whole time. I expect a lot of mortality but enough successes to make them worth the effort. Time will tell.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Warren
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67640Post Warren
Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:13 pm

Phil the vinegar is acid , peroxide is base, they probably counteracted each other, therefore nothing was achieved.

philip_la
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67642Post philip_la
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:31 pm

The two would have reacted to create peroxyacetic acid (PAA) in excess H202 at that concentration.

"The mechanism of microbicide [property of PAA] is through the formation of hydroxyl radicals, which rapidly oxidize a variety of organic materials, including lipids, ionic protein bonds, sulfhydryl groups, and cysteine disulfide bonds (disrupting protein structure), killing cells with ruthless efficiency even at low concentrations; this is the same oxidative antimicrobial mechanism exhibited by hydrogen peroxide, but PAA has a much higher oxidative capacity at much lower concentrations (Heritage Systems 2005). As such, it displays efficient killing capacity against gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria, yeasts, molds, and algae (Kramer 1997) at a broad temperature (≥ 34˚F) and pH range (≤ pH 8.5) (Heritage Systems). It diminishes these populations within one minute of contact (Kim et al. 2007)"

PAA breaks down into acetic acid, oxygen, and water. Reconstituting desiccated seeds with adequate oxygen is important, hence the excess H2O2. I do wonder if the PAA may have softened the pericarp some as well.

You are probably right that this experiment contributed nothing, and it was admittedly done on a whim -- as an experiment with no proven scientific basis -- but the results probably won't convince me to do otherwise next time 'round with old desiccated heps. It is worth noting that this solution was for the entire hep which *might* have provided some protection to the seed itself, but the heps were *completely* dessicated.

The reconstituted heps had a surprisingly fresh odor when I was processing them. Definitely smelled the apple.

I'm guestimating I did about 15% of this solution/blend in water for the reconstituting, for whatever it's worth. I actually used the same solution for the rotten, moist heps as well. As I say, it probably isn't even worth the effort of repeating as an experiment using a control -- the point of it was th8t it made me *feel* like I was doing something special for the little guys -- I was feeling guilty for not germinating them as it was.
Philip F.
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HamishC
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67653Post HamishC
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:02 pm

🙂

jriekstins
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67657Post jriekstins
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:44 pm

About 10 yrs ago I read (my memory does not serve me well enough to remember where) that R. woodsii (no specific strain) does not merit use in hybridizing because it had little to nothing to add to the gene pool. However, I germinated some rosa woodsii seeds, collected in Canada, and was surprised by how quickly they bloomed and how much diversity they had (small differences) in some details. I kept two very different specimens, one of which was repeat blooming and last yr I noticed that I had several OP r.foliolosa x rugosa seedlings that looked like they might be woodsii crosses. This past fall I kept a few small woodsii hips and they have germinated with what looks like about 15-20% rugosa like traits-shorter, rugose stocky seedlings compared to the fast growing tall lanky woodsii seedlings. What I am hoping to add by using them (the woodsii) is their health, drought and heat tolerance. They strike me as being tough. Here, moderns seem quite susceptible to Downy Mildew (raising Hell right now) but several species mixes seem to not be bothered. Hopefully they will also add some cold hardiness, but probably like the rosa nutkana/ acicularis mix, they will resist being anything but shades of pink.
]Jackie, SoCal., zone 9b,coastal foothills

philip_la
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67669Post philip_la
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:44 am

My Santa Fe (R. arizonica? R. fendlerii?) roses were actually pretty attractive, having almost willowy bluish colored foliage, bronze stems, and bright red heps. It bears little resemblance to the things in CO, though they endured *very* different weather. I'm hoping the seedlings won't hate central Texas too much, and that I can grow them in some part shade in my back yard.

Don, I lied about my rate of germination on the ancient rugosas. Those things have a will to live. When I posted, I had recently pulled them back out of the fridge for round 2. I have subsequently had a massive germination and a helluva lot of seedlings with a tangle of radicles in the baggie. I looked at them again yesterday, and after picking my jaw up off the table, decided to just dump the whole darned thing into a pot, cover it with soil, and let natural selection handle the preliminary culling. Honestly, I would not have expected this many germinations with *fresh* seed, but I have no experience germinating rugosas. I know I picked out several dozen seeds that had the tiniest of holes drilled into them by bugs, and would assume many of the remainders had likewise been infested.
Philip F.
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Paul G. Olsen
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67710Post Paul G. Olsen
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:42 pm

It's ironic Rosa woodsii is the most geographically widespread Rosa species in North America, but it hasn't contributed much to the development of roses in Canada and the U.S. 'Therese Bugnet' (Rosa blanda) being one notable exception. However, I think it has a lot of potential and therefore continuously work with it. Here are a few options for its use.

1. Development of cold hardy (Zone 3) Climbers by combining it with Rosa maximowicziana. In other words, re-do T.J. Maney's Rosa multiflora x Rosa blanda (Rosa woodsii) that resulted in 'Ames Climber' (Ames No. 6) but substitute the cold hardier Rosa maximowicziana for R. multiflora. A selection could then be combined with Rugosa cultivars x Rosa maximowicziana selections to add colour and increase size of the flower, and hopefully maintain the tall height of the initial species hybrid. All of these species are diploids, of course, so there aren't any ploidy barriers in this breeding program.

There is a further option of including Rosa wichurana (another diploid) in this mix, although, of course, cold hardiness would be lost but perhaps disease resistance gained.

2. Development of relatively cold hardy (Zone 4?), very fragrant roses by combining Rosa woodsii with Rosa moschata, and crossing this species hybrid with fragrant Rugosas.

3. Rugosas x Rosa woodsii selections can result in having very good production of rose hips, while, of course, likely improving cold hardiness over Rugosa cultivars.

4. 'Schneezwerg' or 'Jens Munk' (these have superior disease resistance to other Rugosas in my experience) x Rosa woodsii could result in very cold hardy (Zone 2), disease resistant progeny that could be further used in Rugosa breeding. Perhaps there is potential to develop selections having reddish stems contributed by Rosa woodsii that would make the shrubs more attractive during the winter.

dgermeys
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67716Post dgermeys
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:59 am

Paul G. Olsen wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:42 pm
4. 'Schneezwerg' or 'Jens Munk' (these have superior disease resistance to other Rugosas in my experience) x Rosa woodsii could result in very cold hardy (Zone 2), disease resistant progeny that could be further used in Rugosa breeding. Perhaps there is potential to develop selections having reddish stems contributed by Rosa woodsii that would make the shrubs more attractive during the winter.
I boughtJens Munk this winter, and woodsii fendleri last year. If possible, I'll try to make some crosses this year. Love the idea. but what would be really great is, to see if the offspring can give some self seedlings that would be tetraploid instead of diploid... do you guys think this might be possible? It makes me think of rosa kordesii, being a self of 'Max Graf'
Dane from Belgium

jbergeson
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67717Post jbergeson
Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:04 pm

Dgermeys, I think it unlikely that you'd get any tetraploids unless you treated the seedlings with triflurilan, which might be fun. Both Jens Munk and woodsii are diploid, so the seedlings should be diploid unless something rare happens.

The seedlings would likely be once-blooming, as that characteristic coming from the woodsii is dominant. What would be fun, if you got a few crosses of the two, would be to allow them to pollinate each other and hope for a recombination that recovers rebloom while keeping the 50% woodsii characteristics.

philip_la
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67718Post philip_la
Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:05 pm

"It's ironic Rosa woodsii is the most geographically widespread Rosa species in North America, but it hasn't contributed much to the development of roses in Canada and the U.S."
Yeah... That's precisely the reason I was asking, Paul. It seems to have *some* merits, and yet... Surely folks *have* played with it, I would assume, but perhaps it was not found to be worthwhile. But I find that a bit surprising...

I like some of your ideas, though with a focus also on heat tolerance and rebloom for my neck of the woods.

There are other chemicals in that class (weed-killers) that can likewise induce doubling, *if* they are accessible to you and *if* you are okay with playing with weed-killers. I've considered playing with such, but I'm just getting back into this...
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

dgermeys
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67721Post dgermeys
Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:47 am

Thanks for the ideas, but I'm not really a fan of using weed killers or other chemicals in my rose breeding work. So I'll have to hope nature will be so kind to help me with the part of doubling of chromosones :-)
Dane from Belgium

Rob Byrnes
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67722Post Rob Byrnes
Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:00 pm

My first attempts with woodsii have been with R. woodsii Kimberly. I crossed Bella Nitida with pollen from Kimberley and have a hybrid that has glaucous leaves but not the red petioles or stems. I'm hoping that the F1 will bloom this season. With genes from rugosa, nitida, and woodsii, the F1 should be very hardy.

http://helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.40994&tab=1

"Introduced 1998. A selection of Wood's rose from the wild near Kimberley, BC, by W. Nicholls,
UBC Botanical Garden. This vigorous clone exhibits compact growth with glaucous leaves, red
petioles and young stems, suckering and superior flowering compared with typical forms."
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

philip_la
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Re: Any merits to R. woodsii ultramontana?

Post: # 67725Post philip_la
Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:14 am

"I'll have to hope nature will be so kind to help me"
Nature is not kind. This I learn as I get older, wiser, and more decrepit... ;-)

"Kimberly" actually resembles the roses in Santa Fe from which I collected hips. I wonder how she would pair with a R. fedtschenkoana derivative. Probably would sucker like the dickens...
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

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