reblooming botanical roses

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dgermeys
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reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67385Post dgermeys
Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:44 pm

Hey there,

we have always been told, in the text books that roses did not rebloom before the chinas were introduced. Although this might be more or less true, I believe there are some botanical roses that DO show natural rebloom. Does any of you have experience with this?

I guess my question is, which botanical roses have you seen that show some (or a lot) rebloom? I believe I know of some, but first I would like to hear from you guys. It would be interesting to work with these roses!

Thanks,
Dane.
Dane from Belgium

jriekstins
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67391Post jriekstins
Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:50 pm

I do not think that the one naturally repeating species rose, weather permitting and encouraging, that I am familiar with is one that would grow well in Belgium. I am in Southern California, very close to the naturally (but maybe extinct) occurring range of Rosa minutifolia. Rosa minutifolia bursts into bloom at various times during the year, but always after a very soaking rainfall. I have seen it in bloom in February, April, and in various late spring, summer and fall months with what looked like the heaviest bloom in early spring into summer. I had two specimens in pots, both of which perished after almost daily rainfall last February, I believe. But I had done quite a few crosses with the pollen I had already collected as well as froze some excess pollen for this past yr. Even though many of the pollinations did fail, I did come up with one hybrid last yr., and about 25 more this yr. Some of these hybrids are offspring from the first generation hybrid, which pollinates widely and has proven to be a very well repeating little shrub. The hybrid does not seem to be affected by the amount of water given it, although I have not tried either over or under watering it, but it apppears much more water tolerant. I do have several seedlings of a Rosa minutifolia cross with {(Calocarpa x R. Nutkana) x R. Acicularis} x Prairie Peace which is nonremontant and it might be more definitive if any of those come up reblooming. Kim has more crosses and might be able to chime in here with his experience with minutifolia being able to pass on rebloom.
]Jackie, SoCal., zone 9b,coastal foothills

AtlasMD
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67396Post AtlasMD
Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:47 am

Of course, there are at least the three relatively widely-grown species that repeat as a rule: R. rugosa, R. moschata, and R. bracteata. The musk rose (R. moschata) was introduced to Europe before the China and, long before that, contributed to the hybrid R. × damascena, which has (variably) repeat-blooming sports like 'Autumn Damask' and various other progeny that probably owe any repeat-blooming qualities to its influence ('Stanwell Perpetual', for instance). R. moschata probably didn't gain as much attention for its everblooming nature because in a cool-summer climate like Britain's, it doesn't begin to flower until relatively late in the year, leading to the reported impression that it was "autumn-flowering" (in regions with warm summers, it actually starts as early as most roses and repeats until winter). Whether or not the reported surprise parent of the Damask, R. fedtschenkoana, was really involved, that is another species that can be said to repeat naturally. 'Ross Rambler', which is more of a mystery as far as its species affinity is concerned, is also pretty free with its sporadic flowers, but I think it is likely to be either a pure species or a natural F1 hybrid if its origin story is correct. Some forms of R. arkansana can also be observed to throw occasional flowers long after the main season is over, and some other North American species in Section Rosa (R. carolina, R. palustris) have what seems like an extended flowering that can vary by clone. There are certainly others, but those are some of the ones that come quickly to mind!

Sometimes, even species or hybrids that do not repeat themselves and have no apparent repeat-blooming ancestors manage to give some repeat-blooming progeny when crossed with roses that do: 'Soleil d'Or' would be one example, and I once raised a seedling from a cross between 'Auscot' (ABRAHAM DARBY) and 'Harison's Yellow' that repeated (albeit somewhat slowly) like a modern rose. Maybe there is something about the control of once-blooming in R. foetida and/or R. spinosissima that is particularly easy to overcome with the right partner.

Stefan

roseseek
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67398Post roseseek
Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:32 am

Would Fedtschenkoana be sufficiently hardy for you in Belgium? Here in Southern California, it can flower anytime from the end of spring into fall. It appears to want more heat to initiate flowering than species like Hugonis, Xanthina and Primula, though Primula, here, wants it warmer than the other two Chinese yellow species before it flowers and leafs out.

In addition to Jackie's comments about Minutifolia (with which I agree), Stellata mirifica can flower any time during the summer and into fall it wishes. I found years ago by providing regular summer water to both of these species, they would continue spasming flowers through fall. R. Californica appears to also be able to "rebloom" if provided water.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

AtlasMD
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67400Post AtlasMD
Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:24 am

I forgot to mention one more relatively familiar example, the double form of the chestnut rose (R. roxburghii f. roxburghii), which unlike single forms of the species, is practically everblooming. That could be related to its lack of seed production, although it does produce a number of seedless, unscented hips each year that are often deformed or split. I've always meant to try pollinating it (assuming there are reproductive organs buried in all of those petals) just to see what would happen, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Maybe others have done that and could comment. I also don't know if removing the spent flowers from the wild form (R. roxburghii f. normalis) might result in repeat bloom, but if that is the case, it would probably be an easier parent to work with.

dgermeys
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67490Post dgermeys
Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:23 pm

Hi everyone,

Thanks a lot for your answers! I 'm not familiar with R. minutifolia, and I'm afraid it's not hardy enough to grow this rose in Belgium, but who knows, one day, if I have a greenhouse I might consider it.
I did buy R. fedtschenkoana last weekend! Did anyone of you try to breed with this rose? It is my guess it would breed well with R. foetida or any spinosissima?

I did see some R. spinosissimas in the wild last year that had a small second bloom, so I guess we can add R. spinosissima to the list as well :-) I also heard that some cultivars of the Scots roses do have a small second bloom in August.
Dane from Belgium

Peter Harris
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67491Post Peter Harris
Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:33 pm

The Spring 2012 [i]Rose Hybridizers Newsletter[/i] (Vol. XLIII, No. 1, pp. 17-19) has a discussion of recurrent blooming in the article entitled "Remontancy: Genetics, Species, Recommended Parents." The article was a "From the Forum" offering, including comments made by many in their posts on the forum. You might want to take a look at this article.

Peter

AtlasMD
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67494Post AtlasMD
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:25 pm

Hi Dane,

The only attempts I've made at using R. fedtschenkoana as a seed parent failed miserably (has anyone had better luck?), so my suspicion is that it might be more productive as a pollen parent. From its descendants it seems to cross with a fairly wide range of roses, so any workable seed parent seems like potentially fair game. I'm not a big fan of the R. laxa/fedtschenkoana floral odor, though. Modifying or mitigating that aspect may be an important part of any breeding strategy if people with functioning noses are in your target audience! If this species is in any way responsible for the perfume of the Damask, a case study in economically important rose breeding if there ever was one, then that hybrid should serve as one potential model for future work. Even repeating the sort of cross that is now alleged to have produced it could have value. Variations of the same might provide a means to learn more about the inheritance of scent, and could even produce an improved Damask analog.

Stefan

roseseek
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67495Post roseseek
Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:39 pm

Fedtschenkoana was a real pain to work with, initially. I raised a series of hybrids from it using Dottie Louise (Orangeade X Basye's Legacy) and Orangeade. They're on Help Me Find-Roses. I've raised further seedlings from it using Pretty Lady, Sheri Anne, Ping Dong Yue Ji, Pink Petticoat and a few others as the seed parents. I'm now watching a Lynnie X Fedtschenkoana seedling to see if it's worth pursuing further. I have a few oddballs from the Dottie Louise X Fedtschenkoana line with Tom Thumb and some others and there is an IHTXLB X Fedtschenkoana seedling [International Herald Tribune X (Lilac Charm X (Old Blush X Banksiae))] X Fedtschenkoana, as well as a few of that pollen used on Golden Angel to see "what if?". There is also a R. Arkansana "Peppermint" X Fedtschenkoana out back I'm watching to see what it might do. Most are on Help Me Find.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Karl K
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67497Post Karl K
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:21 pm

AtlasMD wrote:I've always meant to try pollinating it (assuming there are reproductive organs buried in all of those petals) just to see what would happen, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Maybe others have done that and could comment.
I pollinated the double form by 'Doorenbos Selection'. A hip formed and grew nicely. I got too anxious and opened it. Besides, it was in a public garden and I didn't want to risk some volunteer dead-heading it.

There were immature seeds inside, but I didn't try to sprout them. They hip and seeds didn't seem deformed at all. I wish I'd waited.
Karl
Last edited by Karl K on Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Karl K
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67498Post Karl K
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:32 pm

dgermeys wrote:I did see some R. spinosissimas in the wild last year that had a small second bloom, so I guess we can add R. spinosissima to the list as well :-) I also heard that some cultivars of the Scots roses do have a small second bloom in August.
Reblooming Scots roses are not new. Sarah Mackie (1825) listed a 'Scotch Perpetual'.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Ehret/Mac ... s1825.html

'Doorenbos Selection' blooms more or less continuously. It might be used to breed a darker version of the 'Stanwell Perpetual'.
Karl

aimbeault
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67500Post aimbeault
Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:35 pm

[quote]I did buy R. fedtschenkoana last weekend! Did anyone of you try to breed with this rose? It is my guess it would breed well with R. foetida or any spinosissima? [/quote]
Bonjour Dane
In 2016, I have pollinated Thérèse Bugnet and Applejack with the pollen of R. fedtschenkoana without too much expectation, just for a try. But surprise, seven seedlings have germinated in 2017 from seeds of Thérèse Bugnet (I have kept the four more vigorous among them, last autumn). And also I have one seedling from seeds of Applejack which is particular, because its leaves have a mix of fragrance of both parents. All of them are presently below 4 feet of snow. I don’t know how they will have appreciated their first winter. I will see it at the beginning of May! As you can see on photos below, the influence of R. fedtschenkoana is evident with thorny stems on Thérèse Bugnet seedlings and the greyish foliage on Applejack cross.
Attachments
Thérès Bugnet x R. fedtschenkoana copie.jpg
Thérèse Bugnet x R. fedtschenkoana
Applejack x R. fedtschenkoana copie.jpg
Applejack x R. fedtschenkoana (in front at right)
André
Est du Québec, Canada, zone 3b.

Plazbo
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67501Post Plazbo
Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:47 pm

aimbeault wrote: And also I have one seedling from seeds of Applejack which is particular, because its leaves have a mix of fragrance of both parents.
Lucky...and exciting. Possibly not exactly the same due to foliage fragrance (and being a different genus entirely) but I always think back to
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Amaryllis/McLea ... s1933.html
when anything about combining fragrances come up...always encourages me to dream big (and not be afraid of inbreeding) because there's likely to be a tiny number of super exceptional outcomes....now if only I had the space to grow 500+ of every cross.

On a side note I wish I could get applejack (or it's parent goldbusch) here in Australia (/subtle hint for anyone willing to send seed ;P).

chuckp
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67502Post chuckp
Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:50 pm

Hi Andre, I've worked with Fedtschenkoana since 2006. I crossed it with Morden Blush and R. Acicularis.
Take a look at my thread " Taming the Wild Ones"
chuckp
Attachments
2018-04-04 16.52.49.jpg
R.Fedtschenkoana

Larry Davis
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67504Post Larry Davis
Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:37 pm

About Applejack. I get very few hips OP, and very few with intentional crosses. No seed has yet germinated despite best efforts in several seasons. Maybe a reason that it isn't listed as parent of many. So can't send seed. Goldbusch is a different story, though I only got one keeper from it over several years, many hips and seedlings. That one, a repeat-blooming OP with BS issues, crossed by RKO gave a good hardy disease-resistant bush one year and 2 more much like it the next. Goldbusch went decades ago to BS.

aimbeault
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67552Post aimbeault
Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:12 am

Really Plazbo, lucky and exciting result not expected and now I am waiting for the size and the color of the flower. Maybe the influence of R. fedtschenkoana will give white flowers...!? (I am sure you will be lucky for your quest of seeds in Australia!)

Bravo Charles, very nice results! I like the flower of your cross of R. acicularis x R. fedtschenkoana that reminds me Kinistino, and the foliage seems to have a nice shade of grey. The cross with Morden Blush has given you delicate pinkish flowers and a nice yellow that you have obtained with South Africa. It is really encouraging to go on with R. fedtschenkoana!

As you Larry I tried many tests with Applejack with poor results or nothing at all. But 2016 was a lucky year. If you look on the photo, at left of Applejack x R. fedtschenkoana, I have obtained also 2 seedlings from the cross of (162S) Geschwind’s Nordlandrose #1 x Applejack, and one of them is nearly thornless, very lucky...!
André
Est du Québec, Canada, zone 3b.

chuckp
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Re: reblooming botanical roses

Post: # 67566Post chuckp
Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:49 am

Thanks for your kind words Andre.
R. Acicularis was collected from the wild here in MB. I was surprised at the variations of the flower and hip shapes of this rose.
I hope to return to this site and document some of there variations.
Karl King suggested that there maybe double specimens in wild species. I hope to find something
interesting to publish.
Chuckp
Attachments
2018-04-07 14.30.53.png
R. Acicularis

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