Breeding plans for 2018

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mnemko
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Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67317Post mnemko
Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:56 pm

After a two-decade hiatus from breeding, I find myself with a bit more bandwidth and desire to distract myself from my worry-wart tendencies. Hence, I plan to resume my (futile?) goal of creating no-spraying-required versions of those supermarket minis from Poulsen (e.g., Karina Parade and Gigi Parade.)

In the past, I had a bit of success using, for example, Happy Trails (a mini trailer with a nondescript tiny pink flower) but and Baby Love, but now, 20 years later, they're long gone and for some reason, I'm not inclined to get another. I thought I'd start this topic "2018 Breeding Plan" to share my plan and the varieties that worked well for me in the past, encourage others to share with each other, plus I'd welcome your feedback on my plan.

PLANNED FEMALES
Oso Easy Mango Salsa
Oso Easy Italian Ice
Coral Drift
Pinkerbelle
Peachy Knockout
Mango Veranda
Red Sunblaze

PLANNED MALES
Karina Parade
Gigi Parade
An unnamed (alas) white/pink picotee pot rose that had a label, Por La Mar Nursery.
Marty Nemko
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david zlesak
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67324Post david zlesak
Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:32 am

Hi Martin!!

I'm very glad you are going to breed roses again! I love your Pink Gnome. If it is of interest, Mango Salsa and Coral Drift are diploids and Peachy Knock Out is a triploid.

mnemko
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67326Post mnemko
Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:24 am

Thank you, David. I know sooooh little. It's a miracle that any of my stuff got introduced, let alone that a David Zelsak would like any of my humble offerings. I believe, for example, that Pink Gnome is just a Flower Carpet self.

I only know the tiniest bit about ploidy. Here's all I know (and could even be wrong about that): Tetraploids breed. I think that diploids breed too but when you cross them with tetraploids they yield triploids, which simply means that breeding with them subsequently requires a lot of pollen to get sufficient takes because triploids have a low take rate. That makes ploidy sound pretty inconsequential. But I'm guessing I'm wrong, naive, or both. Given my planned breeding program, what's the practical implication of Mango Salsa and Coral Drift being diploid and Peachy Knockout being triploid for what I should do this spring with them?

Also, I don't have them and don't feel inclined to get them again (It was 20 years ago and I tossed out a lot of roses when I stopped breeding) because I'll have my hands full with just the ones listed above (and perhaps adding Flower Carpet Scarlet) but wonder about the wisdom of going back to making more crosses with Nozomi, Popcorn, Baby Betsy McCall, and especially Happy Trails.
Marty Nemko
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roseseek
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67328Post roseseek
Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:48 pm

Welcome back, Mnemko! Don't be too hasty to write off triploids. Some of the more remarkable results I've obtained have been from triploid crosses and a few which appear to breed as triploids. I wouldn't have Minutifolia hybrids had it not been for a potential triploid. The best of the Hugonis results have come through that same potential triploid. I can't begin to estimate how many attempts I've made using Minutifolia over the past thirty years. Until this potential triploid, there were only one or two possible results and neither lived very long. Now, there are quite a few seedlings which demonstrate positive characteristics indicating hybridity and further fertility. Now, when I consider new possible breeders, I deliberately seek out triploids, particularly those which have shown themselves to be fertile. They are a LOT more exciting and fun to work with!
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

mnemko
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67329Post mnemko
Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:25 pm

Hi Kim,

Thanks for welcoming me back and for blessing my use of triploids.

I am constitutionally impatient, rather ironic given a hobby such as rose breeding, but I'm manifesting it by simply crossing best-of-type commercial varieties given my goal: healthy plants with good flower form that could go in a windowbox.

I'm in Oakland, CA. You're on "the central coast of CA." May I ask where?
Marty Nemko
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510-655-2777

Plazbo
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67330Post Plazbo
Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:55 pm

I don't have any solid plans, it's autumn here in Australia (I'm more in the germinating phase of things)

But 2018 will see increased activity with
Lord Penzance
Lady Penzance
Helga Brauer (since I have little desire to work with Crested Moss itself based on reported difficulties and lack of Moores crested work here)
Bright as a Button
Candy Eyes
Eyes for You
Mousseux du Japon
Dagmar Hastrup
Talisman
Firecracker (or more likely it's offspring)

Those will largely be mixed with various moderns to add in color and rebloom genes (for the next generation)

roseseek
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67331Post roseseek
Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:57 pm

You're welcome, Mnemko! We're "almost" neighbors (just a couple of hours away by car). I'm in Santa Maria, fortyish miles south of San Luis Obispo, about an hour north of Santa Barbara. If it's of interest, check out the hybrids of Minutifolia on its Help Me Find page and those on the pages for 1-72-1Hugonis and L56-1 to see some of the results I mentioned earlier. Then, there is this one I am particularly fond of. http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.73883.0
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

andre carl
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67350Post andre carl
Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:40 am

I have taken a few years off of breeding too and am planning on resuming my crosses this year. I plan on using the following roses, which I consider my best Breeders at the moment, as many times as I can and in many different ways:

Top 5 Seed Parents:
Pink Princess (good pollen parent as well)
Carefree Beauty (good pollen parent as well)
Blueberry Hill
BLACK DRAGON (The 777 Rose X Unknown - either Altissimo or Night Owl) - good pollen parent
Prairie Princess (good pollen as well)
Morden Centennial

Top 5 Pollen Parents:
Lynnie (Good seed parent too if emasculated early)
FAR OUT (Country Doctor X Knock Out)
Polonaise
Cinco de Mayo
Hazeldean

philip_la
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67351Post philip_la
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:01 am

Also just getting back into it, so any thoughts expressed are more from reputation, and not experience, but I will generally second the recommended Buck roses by Andre. Dunno if they will help you towards your goals though. For miniaturizing, I'm not sure how much the "parade" i.e. Aldershot nursery roses, will offer towards garden roses. Consider that their primary goals are: easy to propagate, bring to predictable bud in greenhouse, and holds up in supermarket under fluorescent lighting, as well as tenaciously holding onto blooms (i.e. not self-cleaning).

I don't know if such will be offered by Ball, but as *I* am planning on leaning heavily on Kordes this year, you might see if any of the more highly rated Lilliputs will be available. Chipotle (zwergenfee 09) looked to be an interesting one when it was available, and Purple Rain appealed to me as well. Minis aren't my goals, however, and caveats pertaining to lack of first-hand hands-on experience are re-emphasized!

Cheers,
-Philip
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

RBaxter
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67352Post RBaxter
Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:03 am

I'm going to try to pickup my feet as well this year - been a dabbler for too long.

Seed Parents
Oso Happy Smoothie self
Old Blush
Jersey Beauty
(F.H. R. multiflora x OP) x (F.H. R. multiflora x OP)

The last one has a bit of history. I collected a cutting of what I believe to be R. multiflora back in the early 00's (it was the morning after an amazing Perseid shower, I forget which year) at the Forest Hill Plantation. Forest Hill has an historic log cabin and the grave site of the first recorded Anglo born in Texas. Forest Hill is a gorgeous piece of East Texas, but what I think is R. multiflora is now invasive on the property. I planted a couple of Desprez and Safrano in front of the old forest Hill cabin, probably shouldn't have, but the land owner at the time liked the idea since they were of sufficient age. I wonder if they are still there, anyway...

What I'm calling F.H. R. multiflora x OP was the best result of a bunch of achenes of that original that I merely put in the ground one fall. Once per year bloomer, but different enough from the parent that I knew it was not a self and kept it a bit. (F.H. R. multiflora x OP) x (F.H. R. multiflora x OP) is the best of a dozen or so on-purpose selfs of the above. It looks even less like R. multiflora, the blooms are small, but it repeats nicely, is completely healthy, and has a surprisingly strong fragrance. My gut tells me (F.H. R. multiflora x OP) x (F.H. R. multiflora x OP) is diploid by its structure and the fact that the original FH R. multiflora was planted next to Robin Hood, Rêve d'Or, Safrano, Old Blush, Blush Noisette, etc.. It sets hips, but they are small and I've been foolishly reluctant to try it because of that. Dr. Z's Oso Happy Smoothie taught me not to fear the small hips.

Pollen Parents
The first four listed above.
I've already used Republic of Texas on Old Blush, but may not even harvest them. I've had Republic of Texas for less than two months and I'm going to shovel prune it - blackspot from hell. I let the newly reported parents sucker me.

Beside space, my biggest problem is that I read these wonderful posts and get all sorts of great ideas, but in reality I need to focus, and limit myself a bit.

But I am doing Carefree Beauty x Aloha - a couple already pollinated, and I also plan to do a couple of Sunsprite x Autumn Sunset and vice versa.

Oh, and I can can report that Milwaukee's Calatrava under impressed me here and is gone.

Baxter
Katy TX Zone 9A

RBaxter
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67353Post RBaxter
Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:17 am

I forgot my Rêve d'Or x Blush Noisettes. I've kept four and will likely use the best looking one later this summer for pollen. In my mind they are still too small to try for hips. How big should I let them get before using them as a seed parent? I usually wait at least a few years to see what they become, but father time is catching up to me.
Katy TX Zone 9A

roseseek
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67354Post roseseek
Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:02 am

Personally, if the thing sets hips, I use it. As long as it either demonstrates sterling traits I want to mine or is a cross I have lusted after forever, if it makes seed, I start pimping pollen on and from it. Time waits for none of us and some of these boogers can take too many years to provide results.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Plazbo
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67356Post Plazbo
Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:50 am

RBaxter wrote: Beside space, my biggest problem is that I read these wonderful posts and get all sorts of great ideas, but in reality I need to focus, and limit myself a bit.
This is one of the things I say to myself, also a dabbler of a couple years and as a renter in Sydney, often having to move every year or two (so many pots to move), but on the other hand I'm also thinking now is the best time to explore any and everything to maximise potential time to work with the things that take my interest after I've had first hand experience with them. Things are often different in person than just reading others opinions on things, I mean if you asked me 2 years ago what I thought of rugrose leaves based on pictures it'd be towards the negative, but after getting Dagmar Hastrup last year and seeing how it was completely unphased by the heatwave (basically a week here and there in summer that were consistently 40C+/104f+) in direct sunlight completely unphased (and apparently rugrose and heat aren't meant to go together) while many moderns went limp, had burn marks, had foliage with singed edges, canes that burnt and I'm of a very different opinion (I also really like, even though many probably disagree, that it appears to be self infertile....but I also dabble with lilium so I'm probably bias on that front, I like not having to wait 2 or 3 years to see if the cross I made took or if the flower self pollinated because I didn't get to the bud at exactly the right time, I have a full time job already thanks).


Also on the plan for this year, it's probably not a productive plan and may take a couple years of attempts, but for my own peace of mind I feel like I HAVE TO do it or I'll have doubts forever. R.Foetida x R.Spinosissima. R.Foetida x anything (seemingly) is an adventure in blackspot trouble for generations, even R.Foetida by itself seems to be a blackspot adventure....except Harison's Yellow, seems odd but if it's true, curious why that hasn't been explored further, I mean could a backcross to foetida result in the same yellow saturation but health akin to Harison's Yellow? Add in my general curiosity about R.Foetida and it's fade (or not...every picture I see show's it being a deep yellow, even when on the bush every bloom is deep yellow, probably because the flowers don't last more than a day before all petals fall off like Golden Cheronese) compared with "non fading yellow" moderns (that fade at least 60% by noon here...may be the heat and high UV of Australia)...two birds one stone and the second one may answer the first one (before I even bother attempt a backcross from my own attempt at replication Harison's Yellow) and make me far less critical about modern yellows :P

mnemko
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67360Post mnemko
Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:42 pm

Philip_LA,

Good thoughts. Alas, it appears that Kordes Lilliputs aren't availabe for sale in the U.S. Your points are also well-taken about the supermarket plants. But they are so miniature and the best of them (Gigi, Carmen) have such perfect flower form and petal substance and floriferousness that I'm hoping that crossed with small, healthy garden roses from breeders who make a zillion crosses will mean that I might get something, if not in the first generation, in the 2nd, crossing with another healthy rose or a backcross.
Marty Nemko
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510-655-2777

RBaxter
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67367Post RBaxter
Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:33 pm

As I was collecting pollen this evening it dawned on me that I should do an Old Blush x Carefree Beauty and a Carefree Beauty x Old Blush. Both have made huge impacts in their own ways. It’s a cross that needs to be done.

Baxter
Katy TX Zone 9A

roseseek
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67369Post roseseek
Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:31 am

Don't be fooled by the size of the supermarket minis. They flower at small sizes but many of them, when released in long season climates, quickly build to four-plus tall plants. Not climbers, just tall columns of plants. Been there!
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

philip_la
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67375Post philip_la
Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:40 pm

I was going to post a similar response, though mine didn't live past 2 1/2 feet in my climate. The few that survived for any time in my harsh conditions were very vertical as well. Kim, in your climate do they respond well to severe pruning in the spring?

I wonder if some of the groundcover roses would make decent mates for your purposes. I don't know if you are wanting the erect stems, or just the flower form for your goals...

The Drift roses are decent, IMO, if you aren't in a climate with high mildew pressure. Peach Drift is fragrant as well as having some nice warm colors on a relatively healthy plant. I don't know if it might offer you anything or not. I'll shut up and let others weigh in. ;-)
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

roseseek
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67376Post roseseek
Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:49 pm

They respond to pruning, period, Philip. It didn't matter when.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

philip_la
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67377Post philip_la
Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:56 pm

So, since they aren't very self-cleaning, do you think they might make better mates for Mnenko's intended purpose than I initially thought?
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

roseseek
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Re: Breeding plans for 2018

Post: # 67379Post roseseek
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:43 pm

The disposable potted minis I have experience with, make large plants with small flowers. They weren't selected for garden performance nor plant architecture. They were selected for ease of rooting and the ability to flower as very small, crowded plants under green house conditions. I've actually used them for "landscape" subjects in clients' gardens and as long as they were kept whacked, they filled spots with color. I had clients who wanted more durable color than annuals without the issues of having to deal with perennials. A local garden center would regularly have the out of color, wrapped minis marked down to virtually nothing, which made them suitable to buy and use for that purpose. The average health, in conditions which generally supported decent health without chemical intervention, was acceptable, but there was nothing about any of them which made me want to bring any of them home with me.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

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