Purples/Lavenders for breeding

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philip_la
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67436Post philip_la
Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:28 am

Forgot to inquire (or decided not to since I admittedly have no clue what I'm talking about here). I doubt there is any connection, but Vielchenblau and Errinerung an Brod are two purples that go chlorotic fairly easily for me. Is there any link in the chemistry that allows the pigments of these two to "go blue"? They weren't mentioned in the earlier examples.
It might be interesting to undertake some paper chromotography of all my bluer roses to try and see if I can determine the pigments in them.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Don
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67438Post Don
Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:11 am

Do I remember correctly that EAB is behind Vielchenblau? Anyway I don't know the answer to your question but chromatography I do know. If you can get standards and a protocol and a big budget go for it. An alternative is spectroscopy.

The approach I would use it to get a sample book of photographic gel filters, match up the absorptions of specific pigments with roses that are known to contain them and snap away under the best whole white light you can muster until you know which filters work for which 'pigments' then use that filter to screen seedlings. This has been discussed here elsewhere, I recall making specific filter recommendations.

You might be able to screen leaves rather than petals if your rig is sensitive enough. You would need to clear the chlorophyll but leave behind the pigments so you'd need a solvent system that would work for that.

I think I remember that somewhere here you might find a discussion of using a Spectronic 20 for the purpose instead of photography or chromatography. Again, you would need a solvent system but also standards.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Karl K
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67440Post Karl K
Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:40 am

Don wrote:Do I remember correctly that EAB is behind Vielchenblau?
Don,
There is no obvious connection between EAB and Veilchenblau.

Everybody's Magazine 24: 746-757 (1911)
The Quest of the Perfect Rose
Franklin Clarkin
"Veilchenblau," wrote Herr Schmidt, "is a direct seedling of the 'Crimson Rambler,' not cultivated by fructification with another kind. The name is a reference to the March violet.

The notion that the two varieties are related may have been suggested by the fact that Geschwind (1884) described the color of 'Erinnerung an Brod' as veilchenblau.
Karl

philip_la
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67441Post philip_la
Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:08 am

[quote="Don"]If you can get standards and a protocol and a big budget go for it. An alternative is spectroscopy.
[/quote]
Well, I don't have access to a spectroscope. I was thinking filter paper, crushed petals, and acetone; and then just comparing relative Rf's! LOL I missed the other thread on such, and evidently don't grasp the difficulties. I suppose only a few pigments would really show up on paper, however.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Karl K
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67442Post Karl K
Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:26 am

philip_la wrote: I was thinking filter paper, crushed petals, and acetone; and then just comparing relative Rf's! ... I suppose only a few pigments would really show up on paper, however.
A couple of the important pigments won't show up on paper. Arisumi (1963, 1964) found that the special pigments in 'Grey Pearl' could not be extracted either by hydrochloric acid or petroleum ether. Repeated treatments removed the ordinary anthocyanins and carotenoids. What was left looked like the untreated petals of 'Sterling Silver'.

Paper chromatography can isolate some co-pigments that are barely visible or not visible at all. These can be exposed by fuming the paper over ammonia. In fact, whole flowers can be suspended over a little ammonia in a covered jar. In a short time the flavones and anthocyanins will change color in distinctive ways. I once did this with a bloom of 'Perle d'Or'. It quickly turned tan.

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/King/Chemicals.html
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/King/R ... ments.html
Karl

Karl K
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67445Post Karl K
Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:17 pm

philip_la wrote:A purple that intrigues me is the one that has been obtained through R. foliolosa, such as with Basye's Purple Rose, and Paul Barden's Purple Folio-Chief. I'm wondering if the foliolosas used by Basye and Barden were pure species, or if there was something else going on in hybrid foliolosas.
Philip,
This is an old post, and informs us that the purple is not an uncommon result of this cross.

Re: Rosa laevigata
Before I was able to get Basye's Purple, I did the foliolosa x rugosa cross and got many plants some very close to BP.
by pierre; Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:17 pm

Don
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67446Post Don
Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:24 pm

This is Rob Rippetoe's GOLDAXDORHOR,

http://helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.61421&tab=1
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IMG_9837.JPG
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

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