Purples/Lavenders for breeding

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hoy127
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Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67058Post hoy127
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:10 am

Night Owl, Stormy Weather, or Midnight Blue? I rogue plants that lose more than 50 percent of their foliage due to black spot. Has anyone used Poseidon, Florence Delattre?
Stephen
Last edited by hoy127 on Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jbergeson
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67059Post jbergeson
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:59 am

I can't contribute substantive info, but I love to blab. I have used Midnight Blue quite a bit, and I love its fertility and the rich colors it can impart. But sometimes I wonder what the heck I'm doing using a rose that is California hardy (that is, not hardy) and not necessarily disease resistant. I've also used Blue for You too much and am trying to cut back. BFY seems even less winter hardy in terms of its seedlings disappearing after a winter or two. I had Poseidon but didn't use it much.

In a completely different vein, Ann Endt? Tuscany Superb?

hoy127
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67067Post hoy127
Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:42 pm

Still trying to get a sucker of Ann Endt from someone. Our RHA editor has it and I'm in line for one when her plant obliges. Tuscany Supurb (never pruned/never bloomed) reached 7' this year - has anyone else seen that? Stephen

philip_la
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67068Post philip_la
Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:11 am

I have heard good things about Poseidon, though I've never grown it. Plum Perfect is marketed as a heat tolerant mauve. Both are Kordes roses.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

jbergeson
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67069Post jbergeson
Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:13 am

I'll keep an eye out for Ann Endt suckers, Stephen.

My Tuscany Superb doesn't get more than about 12 or 16" tall and blooms every year. Its foliage looks horrendous by late summer. But seedlings of it are better.

HamishC
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67070Post HamishC
Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:14 pm

Am currently using Big Purple, Outta the Blue and Blue for You paired with various minis, HT/FL and shrubs. Still exploring the manifestations of widely different colour and plant architecture combinations. I would be interested in others experience with these as parents. I’m not chasing hardiness and am generally attempting to pair with healthier partners. B4Y x Katherine Mansfield below.
Cheers, Hamish
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AF948954-7F96-47A8-A324-FB0336A7CE9A.jpeg

jbergeson
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67072Post jbergeson
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:19 pm

Nice one, Hamish!

Stephen, maybe I should root a piece of this rose for you. Labeled as Tuscany Superb x Persian Yellow but that seems unlikely so I'm banking on it being Tuscany Superb x Morden 6910. I guess it's not really purple, tho.
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Plazbo
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67073Post Plazbo
Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:51 pm

There are two mini's (although hmf doesn't list any sources outside AU which only makes sense for one of them) that I like and both are fertile, maybe their lineage will be of use though

https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.73569.3
https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.20720.0

Moon River is a bit less reliable than Gras Blue....Gras Blue smells strongly like citronella though (not the biggest fan)
Accepting/Looking for seed from (as either seed or pollen parent), Coral Knockout, White Knock Out, Morning Magic, Alaska, Applejack, Goldbusch, any of the crested roses. They aren't available in Australia, anyone able to help? Thank you.

hoy127
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67186Post hoy127
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:12 pm

Joe;
I'd be glad to try it out! In fact, if you want to send me a jpeg and a brief description I'll feature a photo of it in an upcoming issue of Singularly Beautiful Roses. Do you have my email?
Stephen

jbergeson
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67187Post jbergeson
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:47 pm

Stephen - done. Sent you an email.

Karl K
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67320Post Karl K
Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:34 am

There are at least four types of mauve/purple in roses. Crosses within each group should give some offspring of the same type. However, crossed between groups may not always be successful. As LeGrice (1968) noted, "Purple crosses largely give reds."

The rarest and oddest is that of 'Hansa', a Rugosa-like variety. The pigment is reported to be nearly pure peonidin, a pigment that is usually seen (in roses) as clear pink or non-bluing red.

The next is due to AVIs (anthocyanic vacuolar inclusions). Ordinarily, the red pigments are dissolved in the vacuole. In these roses, however, the pigment becomes bound to proteins. The flowers open more reddish, then shift towards blue as more of the pigment is taken up in the AVIs. Examples are: Rhapsody in Blue, Blue Magenta and L’Evêque (The Bishop).

Rosacyanins are complex pigments. The two identified in available varieties are based on cyanidin: Grey Pearl, Sterling Silver, Mme Violet, Blue Moon. However, rosacyanins have been identified elsewhere that are based on pelargonidin or delphinidin. I don't know what color a peonidin-based rosacyanin would be, but it might be fun to mate Hansa with Sterling Silver.

Finally, there are the flavonol-copigmented cyanin types. This type of purple is augmented by AVIs or Rosacyanins, but the full benefit may not show up in the first generation. The color depends on the ratio of flavonol to cyanidin. The higher the ratio (more flavonol), the bluer the color ... up to a point. The wild sweetpea gives a good example:
Image
The standard has four times as much pigment as the wings, while the wings have six times the co-pigment.

Marjorie Fair (Ballerina x Baby Faraux) may be another example.

Crossing a co-pigmented purple with another variety that doesn't have enough co-pigment will usually give reds, or less-purple purples. Otherwise, co-pigmentation should combine well with AVIs or rosacyanins.

AVIs and rosacyanins could work together. As the cyanidin is recruited into the AVIs (purplish), the purplish rosacyanins would be revealed more clearly.

In fact, AVIs, rosacyanins and co-pigments might work well together. The AVIs would deplete much of the free cyanidin, increasing the co-pigment to pigment ratio.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/King/R ... ments.html

donaldvancouver
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67321Post donaldvancouver
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:31 am

Hi- Poseidon is remarkably disease-resistant. Really impressive. The flowers are not as beautiful as other mauves, but from a breeder's perspective it might be the most interesting.
Zone 8, with warm dry summers, cool wet winters. Southern Gulf Islands, BC

hoy127
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67325Post hoy127
Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:09 am

Thanks for your responses. Karl K - a big thanks! An article is about to appear in my newsletter featuring lavender/purple lightly petalled roses.
Stephen

SimonV
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67407Post SimonV
Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:00 am

There is a newish purple rose from the Kordes stable called 'Purple Glow' ( http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.71592 ) that may be of some use. It has superior health compared to other purples I have grow but lacks the darkness of something like 'Ebb Tide'. It makes copious amounts of pollen and sets OP hips for me. I have not tried germinating the OP seeds. The photos I uploaded to HMF are not my plant but a plant I saw in a nursery. My own plant is a tough one but is very thirsty, requiring more water than a lot of other roses. I am going to use it to try and make purple singles in the same and darker shades. 'Purple Glow' is also semi-double at most so it should not be too far to single. 'Poseidon' is called 'Novalis' here in Australia. It has indeed had excellent health for me. It does, however, have some issues. It does not open properly, balls, is susceptible to botrytis, and its foliage burns in hot weather. It is also not fully purple, more lilac, and has russet and yellow undertones. The attachment is the photo of the petals I uploaded to HMF. It is also very full, and works as a pollen parent. Hips look like they will work and then abort for me around autumn. I am going to explore using 'Novalis' to look at healthier russets with oranges and yellows.

[attachment=0]Novalis2.jpg[/attachment]
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Novalis2.jpg
Novalis petals

hoy127
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67418Post hoy127
Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:03 pm

Thanks Simon! That one is new to me. My plant of Novalis is very healthy (black spot & cercospera resistant) - time to try its pollen.
Stephen

Don
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67421Post Don
Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:51 pm

>> Rosacyanins are complex pigments. The two identified in available varieties are based on cyanidin: Grey Pearl, Sterling Silver, Mme Violet, Blue Moon. However, rosacyanins have been identified elsewhere that are based on pelargonidin or delphinidin. I don't know what color a peonidin-based rosacyanin would be, but it might be fun to mate Hansa with Sterling Silver.

I would suggest taking this a step further.

Peonidin (and pellargonidin, chrysanthamin and callistephin) makers would indeed give you a different base pigments for your rosacyanins. Grey Pearl derivatives would provide the machinery to hook them to ellagitannins to make new rosacyanins but an anthocyanin is only half of a rosacyanin molecule, the other half being the ellagitannin that you hook it to.

I don't know of a catalogue of ellagitannin-containing roses. Some papers show species roses having them in their hips and leaves (spins, rugosas, dumalis, mollis) but no mention of petals that I could find. So perhaps the best place to start would be with roses that make a lot of tannic acid in their petals, the precursor to the ellagitannins, and hope the ellagitannin machinery in the Grey Pearl derivatives also helps you out.

The gallicas come to mind.

So a general outline would be densely pigmented gallica derivatives + densely pigmented modern roses of any color + Grey Pearl derivatives. Select progeny according to taste.

BTW does anyone know where I can get good quality virus free Sterling Silver?
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

Karl K
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67422Post Karl K
Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:20 am

Don,
Thanks for the suggestions. I did a quick search and came up with this:

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jfq/2017/7941347/
Journal of Food Quality, Volume 2017 (2017), Article ID 7941347, 10 pages
Profile of the Phenolic Compounds of Rosa rugosa Petals
Andrzej Cendrowski, Iwona Ścibisz, Marta Mitek, Marek Kieliszek, and Joanna Kolniak-Ostek
"Rosa rugosa petals are a rich source of phenolic compounds, which determined their antioxidant properties. The aim of this study was to determine the polyphenolic composition of not processed petals of Rosa rugosa collected from the commodity crops and to determine the variability of the contained therein polyphenols between harvesting seasons. Twenty polyphenols were identified by UPLC-ESI-MS. The main fraction of polyphenols was ellagitannins, which are 69 to 74% of the total polyphenols of the petals. In the petals of Rosa rugosa, four anthocyanins have been identified: cyanidin 3,5-di-O-glucoside, peonidin 3-O-sophoroside, peonidin 3,5-di-O-glucoside, and peonidin 3-O-glucoside, of which the predominant peonidin 3,5-di-O-glucoside represented approx. 85% of all the determined anthocyanin compounds. It was found that the petals of Rosa rugosa are a valuable source of bioactive compounds and can be considered as a healthy valuable resource."

I note that they neglected cyanidin 3-sophoroside, and the 3-rutinosides which are found in R. rugosa 'Salmon Pink'.

But it does appear that my whimsical suggestion about crossing 'Sterling Silver' with 'Hansa' would have the further advantage of bringing more ellagitannins into the mix.
Karl

roseseek
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67426Post roseseek
Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:21 am

Don, if Heirloom honestly did have their stock indexed, or obtained it from Davis, their own root plants should be virus free. A friend of mine obtained Sterling Silver from Davis and got ONE plant to root. She sent it to me as she felt it would have a better chance of survival. It's now two years old and is a weak runt of a plant. I've taken two buds from and budded them to VI IXL as they were ready, the right gauge and known indexed, not that it's a good stock for my area. My goal is to harvest as many suitable buds from it as I have appropriate stocks available. I'm excited the Banksiae seedling cuttings appear to be taking as that should make some rather interesting plants of Sterling Silver. Of course, if you have virus free stocks to bud them to, you can also obtain the bud wood from Davis. http://fps.ucdavis.edu/roseorder.cfm
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

philip_la
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67433Post philip_la
Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:02 am

A purple that intrigues me is the one that has been obtained through R. foliolosa, such as with Basye's Purple Rose, and Paul Barden's Purple Folio-Chief. I'm wondering if the foliolosas used by Basye and Barden were pure species, or if there was something else going on in hybrid foliolosas.

My reason for growing some Rugosa 'rubra' seedlings was to try to select for a Rugosa that might contribute to a purple, hence my question in the Rugosa seedling question thread I tried to start. I'm thinking that a seedling with a bronze-red stem might be superior to one with a green stem... I note that several purple roses in this group have "red pigmentation throughout", such as Rotes Phänomen and Basye's Blueberry, and I'm guessing perhaps Paul's seedling as well.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Don
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Re: Purples/Lavenders for breeding

Post: # 67435Post Don
Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:14 am

>> I note that several purple roses in this group have "red pigmentation throughout", such as Rotes Phänomen and Basye's Blueberry, and I'm guessing perhaps Paul's seedling as well.

I can't answer the question about those specific roses but I had forgotten I have seen Basye's Purple and can attest to that being densely purple throughout, anthers included, a real looker. In fact that one would fit your bill pretty well if you can find it. I saw it in DC outside the National Botanical Garden a decade ago.

I grew seedlings of some of Robert Rippeeto's banksia hybrids one of which was red throughout. I'll see if I can dredge up a photo.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

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