Erinnerung an (souvenir de) Brod?

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philip_la
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Erinnerung an (souvenir de) Brod?

Post: # 66864Post philip_la
Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:53 pm

Assuming the purported parentage is correct (R. setigera x Génie de Châteaubriand) I would assume that EaB should exhibit the dioecious qualities of it's mother species -- if it is even fertile...

Has anyone every successfully hybridized with this rose? And if so, is it male or female? or is it in fact monoecious?

I note that a number of setigera hybrids are very double, and I wonder about the fertility of these hybrids. I understand that doubleness often comes of sex organs converting to extra petals, and that such sometimes correlates to decreased fertility. I can find no documented descendants of EaB.

Anybody have any insights?
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

AquaEyes
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Re: Erinnerung an (souvenir de) Brod?

Post: # 66870Post AquaEyes
Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:38 am

On HelpMeFind, all the descendants listed for the rose have it as the seed-parent, so it's at least fertile that way. There is a listing for OP seedlings, which MAY be self-set.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n ... lstTyp=256

:-)

~Christopher

philip_la
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Re: Erinnerung an (souvenir de) Brod?

Post: # 66872Post philip_la
Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:03 pm

Okay. I feel dumb. I wonder if I did a typo in my search? I got no results when I first looked...

Anybody own, or ever use EaB? Might it offer any merit, used with modern mauves? I wonder, for instance, if crossed with Kordes' "Dark Desire" EaB could yield a nostalgic type of improved purple? Is EaB really heat tolerant, as review claims?
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

semiplenus
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Re: Erinnerung an (souvenir de) Brod?

Post: # 66876Post semiplenus
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:57 pm

I've had EaB one season and it is still pretty small - about 3-4 feet against a partly shaded wall, about 4 pencil-width or smaller whip-like, finely prickled canes, matte foliage (my preference). Hoping for blooms this year.

I'm in 10a, southern California - so far, pretty good growth. A tiny bit of mildew when the plant was stressed in the darkest corner of the wall, but otherwise, no disease.

I'm interested in working with setigera hybrids and R. setigera serena, if I can find it...

I have an extra EaB (two were in the band I received) if you're interested. I'd rather it go to an interested hybridizer and I don't have room for two. LMK.
SoCal 10b Sunset 23

philip_la
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Re: Erinnerung an (souvenir de) Brod?

Post: # 66877Post philip_la
Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:12 am

I have R. setigera serena, though very small still. It's a female clone. It does propagate from cuttings fairly easily. If you want to trade, feel free to p.m. me and I'll see if I have A shoot to spare. (Might have a second small rooted cutting still alive, but it was in theory for another trade I need to follow up on. The mother plant from my prior home took a few years to bloom from a small cutting...
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Karl K
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Re: Erinnerung an (souvenir de) Brod?

Post: # 66879Post Karl K
Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:24 am

philip_la wrote:Assuming the purported parentage is correct (R. setigera x Génie de Châteaubriand) I would assume that EaB should exhibit the dioecious qualities of it's mother species -- if it is even fertile...
Geschwind knew the Rubifolias (Hybrid Setigeras), but he did not mention the "pure" species. I suspect that he used Feast's 'Perpetual Pink', which opened pink then aged to purple.

Geschwind wrote that 'Perpetual Pink' was the only Rubifolia (Hybrid Setigera) that was suitable for use as a mourning rose. His 'Erinnerung an Brod' was also recommended as a mourning rose.

Uebrigens kann die Veredlung nur bei Topfexemplaren empfohlen werden; am geeignetsten bleibt die wurzelechte Anzucht, und als Trauerrosen eignet sich fast nur die Varietät: Perpetual Pink.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1864.html

Erinnerung an Brod, eine Hybride, die schon als Strauch gezogen die Neigung zum Hängen zeigt, hochstämmig veredelt, in gutem Boden aber zwei Meter lange Jahrestriebe macht, die im Zustande der Blüte bis zur Erde herabhängen. Die Blüte ist nahezu purpurn oder veilchenblau gefärbt und in dieser Farbe die einzige Rose, die sich einem wirklichen Blau in etwas nähert*). Von ferne gesehen erscheinen einzelne besonders dunkel gefärbte Blüten fast schwarz. Die einzelne grosse Blume ist dabei regelmässig kompakt gebaut und dicht gefüllt (ohne Staubgefrisse). Diese Rose, welche bei Herrn Franz Deegen junior in Köstritz Probe blüht, ist wegen ihrer düsteren Farbe die allerbeste und effektreichste Trauerrose für Gräber, um so mehr da sie dem strengsten Winter Trotz bietet.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pict ... eBrod.html
Karl

philip_la
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Re: Erinnerung an (souvenir de) Brod?

Post: # 66888Post philip_la
Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:12 am

That makes sense also in view of the coloring of 'Perpetual Pink'. But Karl, you are sticking pins in my balloons -- I was hoping to use my setigera towards some other purples in view of this one. ;-)
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Karl K
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Re: Erinnerung an (souvenir de) Brod?

Post: # 66889Post Karl K
Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:20 am

philip_la wrote:That makes sense also in view of the coloring of 'Perpetual Pink'. But Karl, you are sticking pins in my balloons -- I was hoping to use my setigera towards some other purples in view of this one. ;-)
Philip,
I had thought of that, years ago. But after collecting info on all the Hybrid Rubifolias (H. Setigeras) I learned that 'Perpetual Pink' (=Perpetual Michigan) was the only one that tended towards purple. Apparently this color came in from the pollen parent (whoever he was).

I guess 'Erinneerung an Brod' is the best alternative if you want R. setigera ancestry. Unless someone can find 'Perpetual Pink' in an old garden.

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... s1842.html
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1844.html
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1847.html
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1850.html
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1880.html

Karl

philip_la
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Re: Erinnerung an (souvenir de) Brod?

Post: # 67016Post philip_la
Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:45 pm

So, hypothetically speaking, what are the odds of a seedling of EaB being monoecious? My impression was that, as a second (errr... third?) generation setigera, the odds are favorable?
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Karl K
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Re: Erinnerung an (souvenir de) Brod?

Post: # 69618Post Karl K
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:56 pm

In a 1997 reprint of some of Geschwind's writings, I came across this interesting item:

"In not too dry summer and soil the large, densely filled, flat flower is almost purplish-blue or violet-blue, usually with a dark red heart, and it is the only rose in this color that sometimes approaches a true blue, it surpasses Reine des Violettes, Violacea, Dr. Hogg and others of similar color."

This reminded me of something Rose Scott-Moncrieff (1936) wrote in her paper on plant pigments.
"Complex anthocyanins occur more often in nature than might be supposed from the results of isolation and identification. ... The most interesting case recorded is that of the rose "Veilchenblau", which appeared to develop less blue-red flowers in the very dry 1934 season than normally. The bluer petals were separated and found to contain complex as well as normal 3-5-dimonoside, while the redder petals contained less of the complex pigment."

This suggests that both 'Veilchenblau' and 'Erinnerung an Brod' rely on pigment complexes for their color, which develops best when the season and soil are not too dry. 'Donau!', bred from EaB, is another good purple.
Image

Then I remembered another item. I once saw 'Baby Faurax' with unusually dark purple flowers. I noted at the time that the weather had been cool and damp.
Image

And Moore's 'Sweet Chariot', derived from 'Violette', is another member of the probable-complex-pigment group. And like 'Baby Faurax', it is everblooming.
Image

While I'm on this, I want to mention a couple of items that came up while I was googling for info on 'Erinnerung an Brod'.

Shrub roses of today (1963) Page 134
Gordon D. Rowley 
Erinnerung an Brod. Geschwind, 1886. 'Souvenir de Brod.' Brod is a town in Bosnia. Supposed to be a hybrid between R. rubrifolia and 'Génie de Chateaubriand'.

The Amateur Gardener's Rose Book (1905) Page 128
Julius Hoffmann 
 Erinnerung an Brod, CI. R. (raised from "rubiginosa" and "Genie de Chateaubriand " by Geschwind, 1886)

semiplenus
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Re: Erinnerung an (souvenir de) Brod?

Post: # 69624Post semiplenus
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:11 am

Karl K wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:56 pm

While I'm on this, I want to mention a couple of items that came up while I was googling for info on 'Erinnerung an Brod'.

Shrub roses of today (1963) Page 134
Gordon D. Rowley 
Erinnerung an Brod. Geschwind, 1886. 'Souvenir de Brod.' Brod is a town in Bosnia. Supposed to be a hybrid between R. rubrifolia and 'Génie de Chateaubriand'.

The Amateur Gardener's Rose Book (1905) Page 128
Julius Hoffmann 
 Erinnerung an Brod, CI. R. (raised from "rubiginosa" and "Genie de Chateaubriand " by Geschwind, 1886)
Geschwind was known to have worked with R. setigera extensively in his exploration of cold hardiness potential. Not saying that he worked exclusively with setigera…perhaps he explored other species as well...but overall, I think we can probably chalk up the above quotations as clumsy misreadings of rubifolia by the authors.

I have Erinnerung an Brod and there is quite a bit of similarity to R. setigera. It's in bud now - beautiful poise of the flower clusters. I'll see if I can snap a few pics this week and of the canes too and post here and HMF.

Did anyone happen to see that there is a lady in Chile on HMF who may have rediscovered Genie de Chateaubriand? Beautiful dark coloration on her pics of it. Would be wonderful to see that rose restored to commerce if it is indeed responsible for the purple tones in Erinnerung an Brod's offspring. Looks like there has been some more recent work done with Erinnerung an Brod as a female parent as well - interesting results with varied fathers on HMF.

Thanks,
Mike
SoCal 10b Sunset 23

philip_la
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Re: Erinnerung an (souvenir de) Brod?

Post: # 69651Post philip_la
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:45 pm

I'm envious. I finally got my EaB in the ground, and have yet to see signs of buds. Keeping my fingers crossed as it's still early -- we had a late and highly unusual freeze that set a number of things back. (Nipped all the peach flowers -- no fruit this year on my tree. :-( )

I can't put a finger on it, but something about the plant has made me wonder if EaB might have figured into the parentage of Lavender Crush... Probably not, but it is interesting to think some folks might be using EaB again. I have drooled over good mauve roses for years, and this will be my first year really playing with such...
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Karl K
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Re: Erinnerung an (souvenir de) Brod?

Post: # 69655Post Karl K
Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:46 am

semiplenus wrote:
Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:11 am
Karl K wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:56 pm

While I'm on this, I want to mention a couple of items that came up while I was googling for info on 'Erinnerung an Brod'.

Shrub roses of today (1963) Page 134
Gordon D. Rowley 
Erinnerung an Brod. Geschwind, 1886. 'Souvenir de Brod.' Brod is a town in Bosnia. Supposed to be a hybrid between R. rubrifolia and 'Génie de Chateaubriand'.

The Amateur Gardener's Rose Book (1905) Page 128
Julius Hoffmann 
 Erinnerung an Brod, CI. R. (raised from "rubiginosa" and "Genie de Chateaubriand " by Geschwind, 1886)
Geschwind was known to have worked with R. setigera extensively in his exploration of cold hardiness potential. Not saying that he worked exclusively with setigera…perhaps he explored other species as well...but overall, I think we can probably chalk up the above quotations as clumsy misreadings of rubifolia by the authors.
Mike
Mike,
I just wanted to share a couple of the errors that happen when well-intentioned people get sloppy. At least these two instances did not get formalized ... although I have seen the rubifolia/rubrifolia confusion before. Rowley should have known better, because he had written about confusions of rose names.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... s1959.html

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