Strategies_for_the_development_of_unique_flower_forms_in_orn

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Re: Strategies_for_the_development_of_unique_flower_forms_in

Postby jbergeson » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:06 pm

I'm interested in induced mutations in roses. Possibly through the application of ethyl methanesulfonate. I have a friend who does that with corn, immersing the pollen in a solution of the mutagen mixed in mineral oil. The first question - would rose pollen still be able to take if it was applied in a mineral oil slurry?

Unfortunately mutations are always recessive, my friend claims, so the changes wouldn't even manifest until the treated seedlings were inbred to the next generation.

It seems like Art Nouveau is an rose that could be used to develop unique flower forms via conventional breeding.
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Re: Strategies_for_the_development_of_unique_flower_forms_in

Postby Karl K » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:44 pm

'Art Nouveau' puts me in mind of Rosa humilis var triloba.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55532&p=65012&hilit=triloba#p65012
Meehan (1889) presented the latter as evidence that rose petals are modified stipules, rather than leaves. In 'Triloba', and to a lesser degree in 'Art Nouveal', the dilated petiole is expressed.

Another possibility for a new form is 'Permanent Wave'. The crisped petal edges would be particularly effective combined with picotee, or with a bicolor such as red/yellow or purple/white.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pict ... twave.html
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Re: Strategies_for_the_development_of_unique_flower_forms_in

Postby Jwindha » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:49 am

Mutations are not always recessive, necessarily.

Gain-of-function mutations tend to be dominant while loss-of-function mutations tend to be recessive. Exposing plants to mutagens will *most likely* result in a recessive trait, but not always.
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Re: Strategies_for_the_development_of_unique_flower_forms_in

Postby philip_la » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:56 pm

Does gain-of-function really correlate with dominance, or do you mean to say that gain-of-function mutations, when they occur, are often passed on to future generation whereas the others are less likely to be reflected in future generations?

For the most part, the generalization about mutations rarely getting passed on seems to hold, based on my limited understanding. I'm not aware, for instance, of a case where fimbriated or heavily lobed petals were inherited -- those are traits that would, IMO, be interesting to be able to breed into a line.

Karl, I thought the consensus was that petals anthers and stamens were all considered analagous, as evidenced by the mutation of doubles, in which the sex organs are reduced or absent.
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Re: Strategies_for_the_development_of_unique_flower_forms_in

Postby Jwindha » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:22 pm

Being passed on to future generations more frequently IS what makes gain-of-function mutations dominant.

Gain-of-function mutations often confer a selective advantage. The plants with the advantage out-compete those which don't have it and thus the trait is passed on more frequently. As time goes by, the gain-of-function mutation becomes the dominant trait in the population because it's the most efficient.

Loss-of-function mutations often confer a *disadvantage to survival* and thus the mutation isn't passed on as often.

If the mutation doesn't confer some sort of advantage to survival, it's often eliminated in a wild population or hides in heterozygous carriers. In our artificial breeding programs, however, a plant can afford a loss-of-function mutation because it's being provided with water and nutrients rather than competing in the wild for resources.
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Re: Strategies_for_the_development_of_unique_flower_forms_in

Postby philip_la » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:14 am

Okay. So, to be clear, you are talking "selection" and not "heritability."
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