Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questions..

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Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questions..

Postby Sebastien » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:23 pm

Dear rose hybridizers,

First, thanks for welcoming me on your forum.
I'm located in Silver Spring, Maryland, USA east coast.
I usually hybridize and experiment with the Rubus genus, but I do have one Rosa project, that require some help and information.
This project is more linked to my "edible landscaping / food forest" focus, so the specific goal here is related to rose hips. I do eat and use Rosa Rugosa hips for jams, no specific cultivar expect for one, harvested in front of the San Francisco botanical garden with pretty large hips.

I would like to create a rose with large purple hips, so using Rosa Pimpinellifolia AKA spinosissimas (tetraploid) as a parent - it's been show to been extremely rich in anthocyanin.
Crossing with Rosa Rugosa (diploid) would produce a sterile hybrid, so this option is not possible.

My questions are the following:
1/ I saw there are tetraploid Rosa Rugosa cultivars, mentioned in this forum. Do you know of any that would be commercially available,
2/ One old Rosa Rugosa cultivar is the Rosa "Magnifica" that has R. Rugosa as a parent - and happened to have the best tasting large hip out there. Anyone knows what was the other parent, or if Magnifica is tetraploid ?
3/ Do you know any other rose, other than r. Rugosa, that wold have decent sized hip, AND also tetraploid ?

Thanks a lot for any help on that topic.
Regards.

Sébastien.

Rosa Pimpinellifolia (AKA spinosissimas)
Image
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby Plazbo » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:12 pm

The rugosa (there's also a rubiginosa hybrid) hybrid Magnifca's other parent was Ards Rover. Most Hybrid Perpetuals are tetraploid so Magnifica is probably triploid

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.5558

Triploid doesn't necessarily mean sterile. There are fertile triploid roses out there.
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby Sebastien » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:46 pm

Thank you Plazo..
I just found out that Magnifica is pentaploid.
I also saw that "Basye’s Blueberry" rose, 1/2 R. Rugosa, is tetraploid and with decent fruits (+ thornless), so I might go for this one.
Rosa Harisonii - « Harison's Yellow » (R. pimpinellifolia x R. foetida) could be an entrance to purple hip too, and this one has bigger hips, but helpmefind.com signal that issue:
-
Although Harison's Yellow has been considered tetraploid for many years, many plants labeled as Harison's Yellow are triploid. At least 2 genotypes are in commerce as Harison's Yellow.

Any reliable source for the original Rosa Harisonii - « Harison's Yellow » ?

Thank you.
Seb
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby AquaEyes » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:44 pm

The pentaploid 'Magnifica' is the Hybrid Rubiginosa.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.4064


The Hybrid Rugosa 'Magnifica' is the triploid one.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.5558


:-)

~Christopher
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby Sebastien » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:12 pm

Ok, thank you Christopher !
Last edited by Sebastien on Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby hoy127 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:38 am

Basye's Blueberry produces hips with lots of flesh and few seeds. Potential to produce lots of hips as well. I've grown it for years.
Stephen
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby Sebastien » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:42 pm

Thank you Stephen, it seems like one of the best option indeed.
That one and Rosa Villosa (aka Pomifera aka Apple rose), which is also Tetraploid, should be excellent match for my project.
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby Jwindha » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:14 pm

I am also interested in the idea of breeding for hip production.

You may want to check out the rugosa, 'Sweet Hips' (not listed on HMF yet).

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55511

-Jonathan
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby Johannesp » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:21 pm

I think the name is FM3. A tetraploid 1/2 Rosa rugosa. One could breed out the Rosa rugosa. The plant is from Morden. J
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby johannes Pl » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:38 pm

FM3 is a tetraploid, half Rosa rugosa. Perhaps be a chance the large hips could be recovered in one cross. From Morden Canada. Johannes
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby johannes » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:28 pm

FM3 should be RSM K1
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby Sebastien » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:59 pm

Good to know.. Thanks, Johannes !
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby hoy127 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:09 am

Also. Just bought a plant of Dr. Eckener. According to HMF - a tetraploid HRug.
Stephen
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby chuckp » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:32 am

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.31984
I'm trying this next year.

Stephen, just collected my first Dr. Eckener hips.
chuckp
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby Paul Olsen » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:33 pm

My suggestion is 'Suzanne' or Rosa laxa x R. altaica or R. spinosissima. 'Suzanne's' hips are dark red, likely because of the influence of Rosa spinosissima in its pedigree. However, in my experience 'Suzanne's seeds can be difficult to germinate.

Rosa laxa has a much better flesh/seed ration than Rosa rugosa hips, so I would keep that in mind.

Rosa rugosa x R. spinosissima seedlings are invariably extremely prickly to the point of being vicious.

By the way, I recall eating Rosa villosa hips many years ago at the Brooks, Alberta Horticulture Research Centre, now the Crop Diversification Centre South. It was like eating jam off a tree!
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby Sebastien » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:18 pm

Thanks a lot !
I never heard about R. Laxa for hips consumpton, that's precious information...
There are some R. Rugosa x R. spinosissima out there already ? Oh man...
Yes indeed: breed by a certain Thomas Silvers

Thanks to all.
Seb
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby tsilvers » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:55 pm

rugosa X spinosissima.JPG


Hi Sebastian, I am that "certain Thomas Silvers"!
Thanks for the chuckles - I've been called much worse names. ;)
I've tried to attach a picture of the rugosa X spinosissima F1 that I still have. I did the cross in the past with normal spinosissima but this particular one is from 'Double White Scotch'. I was hoping I'd get a double flowered F1.

I also have to tell you the bad news that it has never set a single hip in probably two decades. It is most likely triploid. I still hold out hope that I can chromosome double this one to get a hexaploid which would hopefully restore fertility and hip production. I tried fedtschenkoana pollen on it this season but that didn't work either. Maybe the pollen has some fertility but I haven't really tried it.
I look forward to seeing what you can do with hip improvement. I've always thought that was a great idea!
Best wishes, Tom
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby Sebastien » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:38 pm

Aie; sorry about the "certain"; I am not a native English speaker, so it can happen I used that word without knowing some negative connotation. I really didn't mean anything wrong at all.
I'll admit I was jealous about that rose you have, though !

At this point, after some research and some comments here above, I'll just stick to 3 roses for now: R. Pimpinellifolia (I prefer the sound of this name, rather than "Spinosissima"...) - R. Villosa - Basye's Blueberry rose.
Of course, I'm interested in some of the other roses mentioned - 'Sweet Hips' or those from Morden, but they don't seem to be available to the first amateur newbie like me.

Not too surprised that the R. Pimpinellifolia X Rugosa is sterile, unfortunately, but I love that this rose exists.

Thanks for reaching out, and thank you for the picture !
Talk soon.

Sébastien
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby jbergeson » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:44 pm

Thanks, Sébastien, for the excellent thread. I, too, am interested in the edible hip pathway although I am not currently pursuing it. I love the idea of getting more anthocyanins into rugosa rose hips. One of my spinosissima cultivars, I can't remember which one but maybe Seager Wheeler, has pitch-black hips.

After a century or two of breeding we should be able to turn the rose into a choice edible fruit!
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Re: Project for large rose hip X R. Pimpinellifolia. Questio

Postby tsilvers » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:44 pm

No apologies necessary at all Sébastien. :)
And thanks for the kind comments.

But no need to be jealous - this hybrid suckers very well, so you can grow it too!!!
Although it has been sterile for me so far, I never say never 100%.
Maybe you will be the one to get it to succeed. I would love to see that!

I've sent my e-mail address by PM and look forward to hearing from you.
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