Hybrid Musk Kathleen

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Re: Hybrid Musk Kathleen

Postby Karl K » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:32 am

AquaEyes wrote:It's a shame no one seems to have pursued making "Polyanthas" out of R. moschata using Lawrancianas or Miniatures instead of full-sized Chinas. I guess they'd be like miniature Noisettes genetically, but function like Polyanthas. I think R. moschata isn't as alkaline-phobic as R. multiflora, so the offspring would probably do better in CA.
~Christopher

Christopher,
I forgot about 'Sunshine' and its seed-parent 'George Elger'. These are dwarf Tea-Noisettes that grow like Polyanthas.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.6116

'Sunshine' was bred from George Elger x William Allen Richardson. This suggests that other dwarf Tea-Noisettes might be bred from 'Sunshine' mated with other Noisettes and Tea-Noisettes.

It is worth noting that Soupert & Notting crossed Marechal Niel x Madame Chédanne Guinoisseau. They raised two seedlings from the cross. One was a climber like the mother, the other was a dwarf stocky shrub like the father. So, just maybe, 'Sunshine' and 'Marechal Niel' could get together to make some more yellow toned Dwarf Tea-Noisette.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... g1896.html

Karl
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Re: Hybrid Musk Kathleen

Postby roseseek » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:19 pm

If you pursue that route, I would suggest Sunshine as the pollen parent. My experience is the VERY few seedlings to germinate from Sunshine seed are generally very weak and extremely susceptible to mildew and rust. It will set hips, but they often fail to mature and they contain few seeds. The few they do contain, frequently fail to germinate. The very few which have, haven't been worth messing with.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence
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Re: Hybrid Musk Kathleen

Postby AquaEyes » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:22 pm

Thank you both for the info! I was actually thinking about starting further back, such as crossing something like "Dolly Dudley" or 'Oakington Ruby' or 'Rouletti' with R. moschata directly and going from there, not involving any R. multiflora but using only other Chinas and Noisettes. But I do have 'Sunshine' as well, so I'll keep that in mind.

Kim, this is rather OT, but I can't remember if I already mentioned this to you. Have you looked at some of the pics of 'George Elger' on HMF? I know you're smitten with "Schmidt's Smooth Yellow" and you think it might be 'Eugenie Lamesch', but it appears more of a match to 'George Elger' -- especially with respect to being "smooth". I haven't grown GE, but the few recent Australian pics -- which match the much older scanned pics, unlike the other three from France -- appear virtually identical to pics of SSY. I'll repost this on the Antique Roses Forum and see what others think.

:-)

~Christopher
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Re: Hybrid Musk Kathleen

Postby roseseek » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:40 pm

The photos do look quite interesting, Christopher, thank you! Have you encountered any mention anywhere of George having been commercially available in the US in the past? Eugenie was sold and listed in comparisons of roses grown in the US prior to WWII.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence
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Re: Hybrid Musk Kathleen

Postby Karl K » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:59 pm

roseseek wrote:Have you encountered any mention anywhere of George having been commercially available in the US in the past?

Kim,
I uploaded pictures to HMF from these American catalogs:

Storrs & Harrison Co., Painesville, OH 1917
Rosemont Nurseries, Tyler, TX 1957

It was also listed in an ad in Natural Gardening Magazine, Volume 57 page 130 (1970). All I can see is a snippet view, so I don't know the company. Maybe Stark Bro's.
Last edited by Karl K on Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hybrid Musk Kathleen

Postby AquaEyes » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:03 pm

[quote="roseseek"]The photos do look quite interesting, Christopher, thank you! Have you encountered any mention anywhere of George having been commercially available in the US in the past? Eugenie was sold and listed in comparisons of roses grown in the US prior to WWII.[/quote]



One of the references for GE is Roses in the Little Garden (1926) by Glendon A. Stephens, from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Another is Walsh's Handbook of Roses (1917) by Michael H. Walsh from Wood's Hole, Massachusetts. So we know it was on the east coast, at least.

:-)

~Christopher
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Re: Hybrid Musk Kathleen

Postby Karl K » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:05 pm

'George Elger' was listed in a Germain's ad in The Los Angeles Times · Page 109 (Jan 14, 1934)

So, GE did make it to the west coast.

Back in 1916 it was widely popular in the florist trade:

Florist's Review 38(968): 24 (June 15, 1916)
(San Francisco) Hadley, Ophelia, Prima Donna, George Elger, Irish Elegance and Cecile Brunner also are favorites.

Florist's Review 38(969): 53 (June 22, 1916)
The corsage rose, George Elger, has proved a profitable speciality with Wietor Bros. [Chicago, Ill], who this season are adding Hill's Baby Doll as a running mate.

Florist's Review 38(969): 84 (June 22, 1916)
(Fort Wayne, Ind.) Cecile Brunner, George Elger and Sweetheart roses are in good demand for corsage work, and these varieties are moderately plentiful. 

Florist's Review 39(990): 100 (Nov 16, 1916)
Baby Doll and George Elger are having a good run this season and bid fair to have a permanent place in the hearts of Nashville's flower-loving public.
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Re: Hybrid Musk Kathleen

Postby Karl K » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:05 pm

AquaEyes wrote:It's a shame no one seems to have pursued making "Polyanthas" out of R. moschata using Lawrancianas or Miniatures instead of full-sized Chinas. I guess they'd be like miniature Noisettes genetically, but function like Polyanthas. I think R. moschata isn't as alkaline-phobic as R. multiflora, so the offspring would probably do better in CA.
~Christopher

Christopher,
Here is an article that may be of interest.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... i1987.html

The authors studied the inheritance of the "mini" trait, and briefly noted that the cluster-flowering trait is inherited independently.

Some of the modern Minis (or Micros) are descended in part from Dwarf Polyanthas.
Tom Thumb (Micro) [Rouletii x Gloria Mundi]
Mon Petit (Mini) [Merveille des Rouges x Pompon de Paris]

Popcorn (Mini) [Katharina Zeimet x Diamond Jewel] inherited the cluster-flowering trait. Its grandmother, 'Étoile de Mai' is probably derived in part from a Noisette.

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... s1878.html
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Re: Hybrid Musk Kathleen

Postby AquaEyes » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:31 am

Yes, that's what I meant. Polyanthas arose from combining dwarfism and reblooming from Chinas with cluster-flowering from R. multiflora. I figured that since R. moschata was also cluster-flowering, starting over again by crossing dwarf Chinas with it instead of R. multiflora would make for a new line of Polyanthas -- except with more fragrance, and possibly without the disdain for alkaline soils. Genetically, they'd be mini-Noisettes. Functionally, they'd be like Polyanthas, but with no R. multiflora in them.

:-)

~Christopher
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Re: Hybrid Musk Kathleen

Postby Karl K » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:19 pm

AquaEyes wrote:Yes, that's what I meant. Polyanthas arose from combining dwarfism and reblooming from Chinas with cluster-flowering from R. multiflora. I figured that since R. moschata was also cluster-flowering, starting over again by crossing dwarf Chinas with it instead of R. multiflora would make for a new line of Polyanthas -- except with more fragrance, and possibly without the disdain for alkaline soils. Genetically, they'd be mini-Noisettes. Functionally, they'd be like Polyanthas, but with no R. multiflora in them.
:-)
~Christopher

Christopher,
I got to thinking about Moore's 'Pink Clouds' [Oakington Ruby x R. multiflora] as an analogy for what you have in mind. However, I think you are more likely to get something like a dwarf 'Champneys' Pink Cluster' in the F1. I would expect rebloom. You might be on the way to another group of dwarf, reblooming climbers. The F2 generation should bring varieties more similar to Dwarf Polyanthas.

I wonder whether there are two or more types of Mini. 'Mr Bluebird' is much smaller than 'Old Blush', but not as small as some of the Micros. Moore raised a self-seedling from 'Mr Bluebird' that duplicated that variety except for being even smaller. This seems to be a different mode of inheritance than is seen with the Micros.

The same approach might bring some of the larger Synstyles down to a size that would fit into gardens. How about a cross between a Micro and R. filipes 'Kiftsgate'? Or a compact Micro hybrid of R. soulieana with silvery leaves?

Just this evening i learned of another Micro that was raised from seed of the "common" Tea rose: 'Master Burke'. It is long gone, but it suggests that the ancestry of the Mini Chinas might be a little more diverse than I had assumed.

Karl
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Re: Hybrid Musk Kathleen

Postby Karl K » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:24 pm

AquaEyes wrote:I think R. moschata isn't as alkaline-phobic as R. multiflora, so the offspring would probably do better in CA.
~Christopher

Christopher,
If you want to hasten your results without going full-on mad scientist, there is this:

Biotechnology and Ecology of Pollen: Proceedings of the ... - Page 117 - pp. 116-117 2012
David L. Mulcahy, ‎Gabriella Bergamini Mulcahy, ‎Ercole Ottaviano

Theoretically, a wide spectrum of traits can be selected in the male gametophyte and expressed in subsequent sporophyte generations, provided that the genes controlling the desired trait are active in both phases. Willing et al. (1984), Tanksley et al. (1981) and others have shown that the degree of genetic overlap between the two phases is extensive, encompassing 60 percent or more of the total genome. Fortunately, many desired traits including resistance to several herbicides, toxins or salt are probably controlled by genes regulating basic aspects of cell metabolism.. The likelihood that these genes are expressed in both phases is high. With regard to salt tolerance, Sacher et al. (1983) were able to select for salt resistant pollen in Lycopersicon hybrids by immersing pollen in salt solutions prior to pollination. Resistance to salt was demonstrated in the succeeding sporophyte generation.

Sacher RF, Mulcahy DL, Staples RC (1983) Developmental selection during self pollination of Lycopersicon x Solanum F1 for salt tolerance of F2. In: Mulcahy DL and Ottavieno E (eds) Pollen: Biology and Implications for Plant Breeding. Elsevier, New York, pp. 329-334.


I don't have access to the book, so I don't know what sort of dosage of salt was used.

I assume that the same method could be used, substituting dilute lime water or other alkaline liquid for the salt water. The pollen tubes carrying genes contributing to high pH tolerance should grow faster, and fertilize more ova. That should be much faster than growing out dozens or hundreds of seedlings and testing them all in alkaline soil.

Selection for temperature tolerance can be accomplished by pollinating at different temperatures, for any one who might be interested.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/KKing/HormazzaSeg1994.html
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Re: Hybrid Musk Kathleen

Postby AquaEyes » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:55 pm

That's a fascinating idea, but when I mentioned the alkalinity issue, I was thinking about an incentive for west-coast US hybridizers to give it a go. Here in NJ, the native soil is acidic red clay, so alkalinity-aversion isn't an issue. For me personally, it's the idea of making "Polyanthas" with the fragrance from R. moschata. I suppose one could recreate Polyanthas by making dwarf reblooming versions of most any Synstylae rose by crossing them with Lawrancianas, or maybe one of the Micro-Miniatures like 'Si' or 'Oui' or 'Elfinglo' if you weren't a purist about having other Synstylae genes in there. Considering the cluster sizes of R. filipes, scaling that down to "Polyantha" could make for a dramatic show in bloom.

Just sharing thoughts.......

:-)

~Christopher
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Re: Hybrid Musk Kathleen

Postby roseseek » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:04 am

Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence
roseseek
 
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Hybrid Musk Kathleen

Postby Karl K » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:25 am

roseseek wrote:You mean, something like this? http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.44752.0&tab=1

That's a nice one.

The Gardeners' Chronicle May 4, 1889 551-552
THE WINTER ON THE GENOESE RIVIERA
ROSES IN A LIMESTONE SOIL
J. Henry Bennet, Torre di Grimaldi, Ventimiglia, Italy, April 21.

Some years ago I planted 300 hybrid perpetuals from a large Rose nursery at Avignon, but scarcely any of them have survived. Maréchal Niel, Chromatella (Cloth of Gold), and even Gloire de Dijon, do infinitely best grafted on Banksias. The latter flourishing like Ivy, forms stems as thick as one's leg, and runs along 50 feet or more. The Banksia Rose must evidently be a regular lime plant.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... e1889.html
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... 1889b.html
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Re: Hybrid Musk Kathleen

Postby roseseek » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:33 am

From how they perform all over southern and central California, I can believe it! They can quickly become MASSIVE!
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence
roseseek
 
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:54 pm
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