Species-Modern Crosses

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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby jbergeson » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:24 pm

My fave is the acicularis x parkland from above. Looks like it has Prairie Joy in it.
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby Karl K » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:23 pm

chuckp wrote:Karl, with the breeding work of Luther Burbank that you cited in mind. I know a place with many variants of rosa
Acicularis base on flower form. Should I be able to find naturally accruing double Flower hybrid seedlings?
Chuckp

Chuckp,
Burbank holds a special place in my heart. He was the first plant breeder I learned about, when I was in second grade.

At that time a local supermarket was selling the Golden Book Encyclopedia, one volume each week. And so, my introduction to the subject came in alphabetical order: Burbank, Genetics, Heredity, Hybrids, Mutations, etc.

After I moved to California, I took the first opportunity I had to visit the Burbank house. I visited there several times over the years, and his Sebastapol place a couple of times.

But before Burbank there was Van Mons, who had a major influence on French speaking plant breeders of the early 19th century. And a lesser influence on some English speaking breeders.

His System of Plant Breeding was a bit involved, but he was particularly interested in reducing the time from seed to fruit, as well as on increased yield and better quality. Some of his pears are still cultivated.

He also raised roses, before he went on to tree fruit. He even raised a black rose he called Cocarde d'Autrich (Austrian Cockade), but it was taken from him by the owner of the garden where he experimented. I can't find that it was ever introduced to the general public.

Some critics didn't see the sense in some of his methods, but I have found more recent research that confirms most of his points.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/King/VanMons.html

Karl
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby Karl K » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:19 am

Rosa x hibernica is another species that has been used a little, with a few hybrids available for further breeding.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pict ... rnica.html

"It is remarkable for continuing in blossom from the early part of June till the middle of November." So, here is an opportunity for breeding hardy rebloomers that do not rely on the tender Tea/China varieties. Its hybrids with HTs also rebloom.

If the flowers of these are a bit small, one could always cross them with 'Schoener's Nutkana' for a dose of mega-bloom.

I think it would be interesting to cross Hibernica with 'Hansa', for example. The blooms might not be show quality, but winter-kill should not be a problem.

There is another possibility that could be explored. This "species" is believed to be derived from hybrids of R. spinosissima and R. canina. If so, it should be possible to recreate the type with improved selections of the parents. The double-flowered Scotch Roses come to mind, as well as 'Doorenbos Selection'.

Karl
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby Peter Harris » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:17 pm

More than 15 years ago (2000) I ordered Innocence, Irish Fireflame, and Isobel from Sequoia, thinking that they might be useful parents for disease resistance. They were delivered in March 2001. Irish Fireflame was the strongest of the lot, and none of them ever produced even one viable seed for me. Innocence and Isobel got very bad black spot and died within two years. Irish Fireflame did set 2-3 OP hips one year, but the seeds inside were hollow. It is either a triploid or a diploid with serious fertility issues. The other two died within two years, so they didn't get much of a trial with me. Amazingly, Irish Fireflame survived for me until 2015. Then I gave it away to someone who lives in a warmer climate.

Apparently Hibernica is a canina-spinosissima hybrid. When I bought the three varieties mentioned above, I was hoping to find disease resistance and hardiness. I found neither--and poor fertility. Robert Rippetoe has grown a few hybrids from Innocence pollen, and his impression is that if there is any Hibernica in Innocence it is more than one generation back.

I wrote to ask Peter Beales his thoughts regarding the Hibernica hybrids I had ordered. Here is what he said:
[quote]Rosa hibernica is very disease resistant, but I doubt very much if it plays any part in the antecedence of the roses you mention.[/quote]

Based on what Peter Bealses and Robert have said, I expect that any success breeding from Rosa hibernica will take several generations, and probably you can expect that at least two generations will be very disease-prone.

Peter
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby Karl K » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:21 pm

Peter,
HelpMeFind has R. x hibernica as hexaploid. Pollinated by HTs, it should give pentaploids. But you never know with roses.

According to English Botany 31, t. 2196 (1824), Hibernica should bloom over a long period, contrary to HMF.

Also, I don't know whether it has been determined which of the supposed parent species was the seed parent. If Canina was the pollen parent, the offspring should be triploid. And so the chromosomes must have been duplicated to give a hexaploid.

But if the cross is reversed, we should expect a hexaploid with Caninae-type meiosis, or nearly.

Maybe a cross of Hibernica with 'Doorenbos Selection' would be in order to re-enforce the reblooming habit and maybe restore fertility.

Karl
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby jbergeson » Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:44 pm

What if it is a 4 + 2 Caninae style? Like if a 4 + 1 pentaploid Canina got pollinated by a 2 + 2 spinosissima. Then HT pollen would yield hexaploids and using its pollen on tetraploid HTs would yield tetraploids.
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby Karl K » Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:05 pm

jbergeson wrote:What if it is a 4 + 2 Caninae style? Like if a 4 + 1 pentaploid Canina got pollinated by a 2 + 2 spinosissima. Then HT pollen would yield hexaploids and using its pollen on tetraploid HTs would yield tetraploids.

If only it were so simple. Crossing a Caninae species with a regular polyploid leads to a messy sort of meiosis that is neither perfectly regular nor perfectly irregular. Blackhurst (1949) reported on this mess.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Hurst/BLKHURST.HTM
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby roseseek » Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:49 pm

Peter, a little off topic...Isobel and Innocence originated from The Huntington. Irish Fireflame came from the very old, large plant in the rose garden at the old Korbel Winery mansion. Gregg Lowery and Philip Robinson permitted me to take cuttings of the REAL Irish Fireflame from that plant, which I propagated at The Huntington in their mist table, then shared it with Carolyn at Sequoia. Ah, those WERE the "good, old days"!
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby Peter Harris » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:24 am

Just taking a chance--
I googled for the ploidy of Irish Fireflame.

Bingo!

http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitst ... er%205.pdf

P. 40 says Irish Fireflame is triploid.

Even if Irish Fireflame has [i]R. hibernica[/i] in it, chances are that it is 2 or 3 (or more) generations before Irish Fireflame A lot of strange things can happen to ploidy in that span. If the cross were HT x [i]R. hibernica[/i], or the reverse, maybe simple calculation would give us the likely ploidy. But things do not always work that way in crosses. And if 2 or 3 generations are involved, the calculations become increasingly irrelevant.

Anyway, for what it's worth, according to this source, Irish Fireflame is triploid.

We can all rest easily now that we know......or think we know.

Peter
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby SimonV » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:05 am

Speaking of hexaploids, another species that has also not had much use, that I've always thought might be worth working with, is R. sweginzowii. It should have straight forward meiosis (3n gametes) and I've always thought it would be useful in creating interesting tetraploids from diploid partners. I have sweginzowii 'Macrocarpa' (see: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.5438) and it is very clean here, compared to others from the moyesii complex such as davidii var. elongata and moyesii hybrids such as 'Eddie's Jewel' that I grow or have grown in the past. I've always wanted to know whether Sweg. 'macrocarpa' is also a hexaploid but given its garden origin (from Sangerhausen) it could be anything, though it is very fertile so I'm assuming it is either hexaploid or tetraploid. According to articles Henry has posted before (see viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6426) sweginzowii is meant to have a particular type of interaction with Diplocarpon rosae that, if I am interpreting the information correctly, prevents any fungal interaction/penetration beyond the cuticle. It does seem to get a little downy mildew but nothing major. In the past sweg. 'Macrocarpa' has accepted a wide range of diploid pollen though I have had no luck in getting the seed to germinate. Large numbers of seed have developed in each case. I have managed to get only one germination and that was from the widest cross I could ever imagine. It was sweg. 'Macrocarpa' x R. gignatea and I only managed to get this one by embryo extraction. The seedling, attached here, grew nicely for a few weeks and then suddenly died with no warning. The seedling on the right is an OP sweg. 'Macrocarpa' seedling for comparison. I intend to put hulthemia pollen onto it this season from the diploid hybrid called 'Sweet Spot Calypso' which is itself very fertile (with very average health). From the link Henry posted above I also find it interesting that moyesii also is listed as having a type 8 interaction with black spot and it features in the pedigree of KO. I've always thought the black spot resistance of KO was largely due to its moyesii heritage.

[attachment=0]Sweginzowiixgiganteacomparisonpic.jpg[/attachment]
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Sweginzowiixgiganteacomparisonpic.jpg
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby Karl K » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:19 pm

Peter Harris wrote:Just taking a chance--
I googled for the ploidy of Irish Fireflame.
Bingo!
http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitst ... er%205.pdf
P. 40 says Irish Fireflame is triploid.
Peter

Peter,
Thanks for the info.
I don't know how I can rest easy pondering how a (reported) hexaploid crossed with a Hybrid Tea (triploid or tetraploid) could produce triploid progeny. Yes, roses do some strange things with their chromosomes.

And I also find little comfort in some of the chromosome counts that have been reported from various quarters.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1 ... 2.10515972

Among other things, the authors inform us that 'New Dawn' is a diploid; 'Zephirine Drouhin', 'Lady Hillingdon' and 'Penelope' are tetraploid.
All of these are generally regarded as triploids.

And here is a table of various roses sorted by nuclear DNA amount. Strange to say, the pentaploid R. canina has more DNA than hexaploid R. moyesii.
"In the Pimpinellifoliae, DNA amounts of tetraploids were disproportionately larger than those of diploids which suggests that they originated as hybrids with species of sections with larger DNA amounts."
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... A2000.html

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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby Karl K » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:08 pm

Now I get it!

I like 'Irish Fireflame' well enough as a shrub, but really didn't understand it's lasting appeal.

Then I found this:

Garden and greenhouse roses / A.N. Pierson Inc.; Cromwell, Conn. 1915
IRISH FIRE FLAME
A new departure in Roses for Winter forcing. Irish Fire Flame is a single Rose with only five petals, and is the most striking and the best single Rose Messrs. Dickson & Son have ever raised. It flowers profusely during the Winter months. The bud is an intense fiery crimson at the top, shading at the base of the petals to a rich orange salmon. The open flower is bright salmon. It is of strong vigorous growth with dark green foliage, reverse of leaf deep bronze.
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby roseseek » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:31 am

Thanks for that, Karl! Irish Elegance and Irish Fireflame both flowered heavily and continuously for me, as heavily and reliably as the best floribundas of today do.
Kim
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby Karl K » Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:28 am

Kim,
Good to know.
And now this:

The Garden, Volume 80: 600 (Dec 9, 1916)
Decorative Roses
Blush Rambler still heads the list, followed by Irish Fireflame, Mme. Edouard Herriot, Hiawatha and Irish Elegance. That fine new Rose Irish Fireflame, a lovely orange copper sport from Irish Elegance, has at the first time of asking taken its place in the table at No. 2, being bracketed with Mine. Edouard Herriot, terra-cotta, introduced in the same year.

Karl
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby roseseek » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:35 pm

Very interesting, Karl, thank you. I've never found anything indicating it was a sport of Elegance. Growing both for years, I would never have even considered it as a sport. Fireflame looks much more like a Pernetiana than Elegance. Of course Fireflame was the "Holy Grail" because it appeared to not be available, but Elegance was (and is) my preference between the two as far as a garden and landscape plant. It really IS "elegant". Fireflame has the more brilliantly colored petal, but Elegance is a much more interesting specimen in all other aspects. I would grow and play with it again. I never got anything from it (either direction) but HMF shows it did have one offspring many decades ago, as seed parent. The three seeds I ever discovered on it were HUGE. It set hips all over the plant and almost all were empty. When I found a seed, it was the only one in the hip. I remember dropping one on the ground and not being able to find it. I also remember dropping one down the kitchen sink drain while cleaning it. The other I think I planted but nothing germinated.

If you haven't already, would you please put that reference in HMF for Fireflame? Thank you!
Kim
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby Karl K » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:37 pm

roseseek wrote:Very interesting, Karl, thank you. I've never found anything indicating it was a sport of Elegance. Growing both for years, I would never have even considered it as a sport. Fireflame looks much more like a Pernetiana than Elegance.

If you haven't already, would you please put that reference in HMF for Fireflame? Thank you!

Kim,
I added the note to HMF before I brought it here.

I did find a mention that 'Irish Fireflame' did not grow quite so tall as 'Irish Elegance', but forgot to copy it.

It can happen that a sport will differ in more ways than flower color or growth habit.

A Rose Odyssey (1937: p123-124)
J H Nicolas

In 1933 I had found a curious sport on Margaret McGredy. The foliage strongly resembled Rugosa but the plant characteristics also leaned toward R. cinnamomea. I mentioned this fact to Sam III [McGredy] when I visited him in 1934. Sam could not account for the sport. He had never used species in his breeding. His brother-in-law, Walter I. Johnston, spoke up, "Your father did much more work with species." We adjourned to the office, where complete hybridizing records from the early days of the firm are kept, one volume for each year, a valuable library. After several hours of research we traced the origin of Margaret McGredy to crosses of Rugosa and Cinnamomea. They were, of course, many generations back. But as these two species are in the blood stream of Margaret McGredy and all modern McGredy roses, the possibility of the sport was explained. It is an accepted fact that hybrids alone sport (pure species mutate, but rarely, if ever, sport) and can sport only within what is in them.*

Lately, the most unusual thing has happened to that sport. A sport is supposed to be a part of the hybrid compound which "took a walk". But this sport must have carried the whole pack as it has sported again a Hybrid Tea type with a magnificent bloom much more intensely colored than the original Margaret McGredy and is a distinctly a different rose. I am planning to name it "Margaret Second".


It would be interesting to find 'Irish Afterglow' to see if it "took a walk" back to the 'Irish Elegance' type of growth.

A cross between a yellow Tea and a Pernetiana should be triploid, so maybe that's the origin.

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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby Karl K » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:51 pm

It now appears that 'Irish Elegance' and the others were the consequences of a deliberate program of breeding for durable blooms and desirable growth habit, rather than just the happy results of various crosses.

Gardeners’ Chronicle, p. 181 (Sept 8, 1900)
NEW VARIETIES OF ROSES.
By “Wild Rose”
"To Messrs. Dickson & Sons, of Newtownards, must be accorded the honour of introducing a race of single flowered Teas, and Hybrid Teas, in which these two objections, the rampant growth and too evanescent character of their blooms, have been obviated. These raisers have succeeded in obtaining some very beautiful flowers which are bound to find their place in most Rose gardens of the future. They are dwarf in habit and they flower continuously from June to November. At a recent show in Belfast this firm obtained the 1st prize for twelve single-flowered Roses, eleven of them being of their own raising, the twelfth being white Rugosa. The three most remarkable of these are Irish Beauty, Irish Modesty, and Irish Glory. These varieties were shown a year ago at the Crystal Palace, and were much admired. Mr. Burrell, of Cambridge, who has recently seen them at home, thinks very highly of them, and he is no mean judge."

Eversley Gardens and Others, p. 147 (1907)
By Rose Georgina Kingsley
Messrs. Alex. Dickson & Sons, of Newtonards, have recently introduced a number of very interesting single Hybrid Teas, beginning with Irish Beauty, Irish Glory, and Irish Modesty, in 1900; the singularly brilliant Irish Star, Irish Brightness, Irish Pride, in I903; followed by the dazzling scarlet Irish Engineer, Irish Harmony, and Irish Elegance, in 1904-5. In foliage, growth, fragrance, and peculiar brilliancy of colour, this new race of Roses is a valuable acquisition to the garden. They are all free-growing, of branching habit, and admirably suited for cultivation as isolated bushes; for they attain a considerable size very quickly, and are covered with flowers till the frosts cut them.
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby roseseek » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:29 am

Thank you, Karl!
Kim
California Central Coast
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Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby Karl K » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:10 pm

Kim,
I found one mention of a pink sport of 'Irish Fire Flame'. Just one. So I guess it is premature to add it to HMF.
https://books.google.com/books?id=dsc9A ... &q&f=false

This may have been a misunderstanding. Someone may have thought that 'Isobel' was a sport of 'Irish Fire Flame'. I just found another item:
"Isobel is a single deep pink rose of the type best known here in Irish Fire-flame."

Karl
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Re: Species-Modern Crosses

Postby roseseek » Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:00 pm

Interesting, thank you!
Kim
California Central Coast
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Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence
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