Finally a splotch!

A meeting place for rose breeders.
philip_la
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Re: Finally a splotch!

Post: # 70827Post philip_la
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:55 pm

Thanks for that link, Karl. Jim has had such spectacular seedlings. I love the apricot one, or for that matter, each of the ones ending each post on that page.

A little OT, but Kordes has worked on some hulthemia lines, and if they really meet the Kordes' standards as described on their site, they would be an interesting source for some new genetics. The health, as reported (based on *my* experience with Kordes' ratings) would mean this one might hold up to KO in terms of health:
https://www.rosen.de/en/garden-roses/sh ... -in-purple

I don't know if Star is as interested in trialing and promoting Kordes' roses as NewFlora was, or if they evaluate according to the same Kordes standards, but hopefully See You in Purple might find its way into the USA.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

Karl K
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Re: Finally a splotch!

Post: # 70828Post Karl K
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:44 pm

In addition to combining blotches with reverse bicolors, there one other that comes to mind.

Has anyone combined blotches with "hand painted"? Throw in a picotee border, and there's a dart board.

roseseek
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Re: Finally a splotch!

Post: # 70829Post roseseek
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:47 pm

Jim has pictured painters with blotches as well as striped ones.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Karl K
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Re: Finally a splotch!

Post: # 70830Post Karl K
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:02 pm

I did a quick search of this forum for Hulthemia painted and found that I was asking the same questions back in 2012. At least I'm consistent.

Since then, however, I have learned about the rosacyanins, and the heat/light sensitive enzyme that produces a 3-monoglucoside pigment in the "chameleon" roses.

We can see in 'Angel Face', 'Paradise' and other varieties, that the red pigment that shades in from the petal edges is not bothered by whatever enzymes are at work making rosacyanins from the same precursor molecule (e.g., leucocyanidin).

One of Jim Sproul's pictures shows the striped pattern cutting through the Hulthemia blotch, leaving no red pigment in its path.

Has anyone tried to put stripes on a mauve ground? Perhaps to combine the stripes of 'Purple Tiger' with the background of 'Paradise'?

Does the striping affect the "chameleon" traits, leaving gaps?

This gets into the biochemical basis of striping. If the trait blocks the production of leucocyanidin, for example, then both the mauve and the chameleon coloring would be blocked. And if the striping blocks only the enzyme that produces the 3,5-diglucosides, then again both mauve and chameleon should not be affected.

Meanwhile, how about Hulthemia blotch on mauve ground?

And if Stoddard's (1980) cross of 'Orangeade' with 'Angel Face' was really producing gray pelargonidin-based rosacyanins and flushed with pelargonidin monoglucoside, then one might combine orange Hulthemia blotches with a gray ground. I'm not saying that such a thing would be pretty. I'm just considering wondering how it all comes together.

roseseek
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Re: Finally a splotch!

Post: # 70831Post roseseek
Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:35 pm

The orange tones of several of the Hulthemia hybrids do turn rather "blue". Persian Sunset starts life in the "Pernetiana shades" then ages into mauves and finally ends quite blue. Unfortunately, I have no images of that to show anymore, but I commented to Ralph Moore years ago at Sequoia, I felt that IF a blue rose was ever bred, that would figure into it. https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.198036 You see the same type of shift in Eyes for You, from pink and yellow to very purple/blue. Several other new "blotch types" demonstrate similar shifts to bluish tones. I've seen better photos of In Your Eyes showing the blue and purple, but the HMF image will have to suffice. https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.327984 Jim Sproul has shared a number of very blue and violet blotch type seedlings.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Plazbo
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Re: Finally a splotch!

Post: # 70835Post Plazbo
Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:00 pm

On the blue topic, if you can track it down (it was bred in th USA) Man of Steel is distinctly grey/blue when the flowers bloom inside. Outside theres a pink/lavender hue and its paler, likely some reaction with sun/UV, inside its closer to Turn Blue and just very blue compared to the usual "blue" roses on market.
Anyone able to send rosa californica (op) seeds to me in Australia?

roseseek
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Re: Finally a splotch!

Post: # 70836Post roseseek
Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:07 pm

The old Purple Beauty is like that. If opened and viewed outdoors, it's a reddish lavender. Opened indoors and viewed under fluorescent lights, it is denim blue. https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l. ... 22.0&tab=1
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Karl K
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Re: Finally a splotch!

Post: # 70844Post Karl K
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:00 pm

The connection between yellow-flowered species and "blue" offspring is not quite as puzzling as it seems at first glance.

Le Grice (1968) discussed the various "blue" roses and their parentage. Rosa foetida figures prominently in some.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... grice.html

The explanation seems to be that these yellows often carry flavonoids that serve as bluing co-pigments when combined with cyanin (red).

Chemistry and Biochemistry of Plant Pigments. Edit. T. W. Goodwin (1976) p, 761
Chapter 16 — Functions of flavonoids in plants
J. B. Harborne
Quercitin 7- and 4'-glucosides have absorption spectra similar to quercetin itself and may therefore provide some yellow in gorse Ulex europeaus, in Rosa foetida and in other petals in which they occur.

I emphasize the "some" because most of the yellow color in roses is due to the many carotenes.

Journal-Chemical Society of Pakistan, 25(4):323-327 (Dec 2003)
Polyphenolic antioxidant constituents of Rosa persica
Amir Reza Jassbi, S. Zamanizadehnajarib, S. Tahara
Abstract
2,2-Diphenyl-l-picrylhydrazyl (DPPH) radical scavenging TLC autographic assay guided fractionation of a butanolic fraction of an acetone extract of Rosa percica resulted in separation and identification of five known phenolic antioxidants for the first time. They are including three flavonoids: catechin (1), (+)-gallocatechin (2) and quercetin 3-0-β?-D-glucuronoside (3), and one condensed tannin: procyanidin B-3 (4), and one hydrolysable tannin: gallic acid 4-0-β-D-(6'-0-galloyl)-gIucopyranoside (5). The radical scavenging activity of 5 is determined by DPPH spectrophotometeric assay.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... sa_persica

J. Agric. Food Chem. 51: 4990-4994. (2003)
Origin of the Color of Cv. 'Rhapsody in Blue' Rose and Some Other So-called “Blue” Roses.
Gonnet, J-F. 2003.
Unexpectedly, the chemical basis of these colors is among the simplest, featuring cyanin (cyanidin 3,5-di-O-glucoside), the most frequent anthocyanin in flowers, as the sole pigment and quercetin kaempferol glycosides as copigments at a relatively low copigment/pigment ratio (about 3/1), which usually produces magenta or red shades in roses. 
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jf0343276

roseseek
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Re: Finally a splotch!

Post: # 70845Post roseseek
Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:15 pm

Then also consider the russet mums, pansies, violas and wallflowers and their mutating and reverting to mauves.
Kim
California Central Coast
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Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Karl K
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Re: Finally a splotch!

Post: # 70860Post Karl K
Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:55 pm

Kaempferol, quercetin and many other flavonoids may not look like much to human eyes, but are useful pigments aimed at those critters that view the world through UV colored glasses. For example, Rudbeckia hirta has golden yellow ray florets, as far as we can see. But in the UV spectrum, it's a different story.
Image
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-U ... _230730335

http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/McClur ... s1975.html

The pigments responsible for the various UV markings can lead to interesting consequences when combined with anthocyanin pigments. For example, pelargonin turned up repeatedly, by "mutation" in varieties descended from Rosa multiflora. I have read that this species accumulates kaempferol, which is chemically related to pelargonin. Maybe this is why that pigment and color did not turn up among the Noisettes.

Rosesbydesign
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Re: Finally a splotch!

Post: # 70942Post Rosesbydesign
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:25 pm

Karl, I am still learning each year new things about the Hulthemia blotch. It is definitely dominant, but I don't know if one copy of the gene(s), or 4 copies in a tetraploid makes any difference. There appear to be other rose genes that inhibit the expression of the blotch and/or modify how it is seen. Additionally, there are some blotches that are rather large that completely disappear in our heat and other blotches that are small, that are very heat stable (meaning that the blotch intensity does not seem to diminish in the heat). I have observed a greater heat effect when the nighttime temperatures are above 70 degrees F. When daytime temps are very hot during times when the nights are cooler, the blotches in general are still fairly intense.

With regard to linkage to other traits (Hulthemia persica baggage - wiry growth, nasty thorns and non-remontant bloom), the modern hybrids are very far removed now. We have good thornless types with bushy habits, nearly continuous bloom and heat stable blotches. Disease resistance is still a work in progress.... :)

Jim Sproul

Karl K
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Re: Finally a splotch!

Post: # 70944Post Karl K
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:09 pm

According to Koopman et al. (2008), Rosa persica and R. foetida are the closest of cousins. It is amusing that these two red and yellow roses seem determined to turn garden roses "blue". Oh, the authors also revealed that R. roxburghii is close kin to R. hugonis, which is pretty interesting and suggestive.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... A2008.html

My objection to this sort of DNA work is that the authors seem not to have grasped the concept of allopolyploidy. They really need to try their tools on 'Basye's (probable) Amphidiploid' or one of the Grootendorsts.
Last edited by Karl K on Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

philip_la
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Re: Finally a splotch!

Post: # 70946Post philip_la
Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:15 pm

Jim, I don't know if you would have any access to such, but evidently Star *is* currently trialing Kordes' 'See you in Purple' to decide whether to release in the USA. In principal, it should have a very high resistance to BS and Mildew based on Kordes' rating for the plant. I haven't yet grown any hulthemias as resistance is pretty critical for me here, but I would consider that one were it to become available based on my experience with newer Kordes roses.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

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