When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

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Rob Byrnes
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When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 62909Post Rob Byrnes
Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:36 am

Due to its rugosa ancestry, do F1 seedlings of Rugelda take a year for first blooms to appear?
Rob Byrnes

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 62911Post Peter Harris
Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:57 am

Rugelda by what? Rugelda selfed?

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 62914Post Rob Byrnes
Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:17 pm

I'm finding that Morning Magic F1s (planed crosses either direction) aren't blooming their first season. Someone pointed out that R. rugosa alba is a grandparent and that may be delaying bloom until second season. I was wondering if the same were true for Rugelda.
Rob Byrnes

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 62925Post pgeurts
Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:32 am

Hi Rob,
It doesn’t look like many people have used Rugelda recently to give you an idea how well the first year seedlings bloom. I haven’t used it either so I can’t say for sure, but we can make an educated guess as to the possibilities.

Since we don’t know the full heritage of Rugelda we can only guess what it’ll pass on for repeat bloom until seedlings are grown. If Rugelda did get non-juvenile bloom from the Rugosa and only from the Rugosa then each of its seedlings would have a 50% chance of getting it from Rugelda. If Rugelda got non-juvenile bloom from more than one parent then it would pass that on at a higher percentage. It’s also possible that Rugelda didn’t get non-juvenile bloom from either Robusta or Bonanza and therefore would not pass that on to its seedlings. But like Peter says it’ll also depend on what you cross Rugelda with.

I also want to point out that non-juvenile bloom is not just associated with R.rugosa. I have grown quite a few Polyantha and Hybrid Musk seedlings. It is not uncommon for some of the seedlings to wait until the second year to bloom in particular the taller lankier ones. I have some “Oso Smoothie” x (Marie Pavie x Robin Hood) seedlings and all of the small ones bloomed the first year, whereas all of the taller ones waited until the second year. Morning Magic is classified as climber and the same thing could be going on there as well.
Paul Geurts
Zone 4 Minnesota

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 62926Post david zlesak
Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:56 am

That's a great point Paul about some of the other groups too. I've experienced delayed initial bloom with 'Robin Hood' seedlings as well.

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 62927Post Peter Harris
Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:34 pm

I grew Rugelda for several years, and never got recurrent bloom from it. Nor did any of its seedlings (from several crosses) show recurrence. One seedling that got hidden among more vigorous seedlings from other crosses bloomed for the first time 9 years after it was planted out. After that it bloomed dependably every spring until I felt brave enough to dive into that thicket of seedlings and dig it out.

Yellow Alzbeta Kuska (a cross between two non-recurrent lines) is predictably non-recurrent. It is also the most attractive first-generation seedling I've seen from Rugelda.

Peter

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 62930Post Rob Byrnes
Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:20 pm

Tank you guys for your input. I guess I won't know until I try. I'm sorry to read that you had no recurrency Peter. Not very encouraging results.
Rob Byrnes

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 62931Post david zlesak
Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:45 am

Caramella Fairy Tale is listed as a seedling of Rugelda. It does repeat, but maybe not as strongly as most recurrent roses in the garden. Hopefully there'll be some good exceptions for some repeaters for you Rob out of Rugelda.

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 62932Post Rob Byrnes
Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:49 am

Thank you David. I hope so.
Rob Byrnes

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On the right bank of the Delaware River


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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 62934Post Rob Byrnes
Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:02 pm

So I'm seeing 2nd generation reblooming Rugelda hybrids Henry. I will have to be patient. Maybe I could get 1st gen if pairing with a real bloom machine.
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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 62980Post jbergeson
Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:23 pm

I have the same question about Ann Endt, whether it might give juvenile bloom in the first generation. I have two Yellow Brick Road x Ann Endt seedlings that have buds, but my results with YBR in the past combined with my pollination methods make me strongly suspicious that they are self pollinations. I also have a YBR x Persian Yellow with a bud, which seems highly unlikely if it were actually a cross.

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 62989Post Rob Byrnes
Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:09 am

Joe,

Do your AE seedlings that are in bud show any traits from AE such as narrow leaves or thorniness?
Rob Byrnes

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 62993Post jbergeson
Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:20 pm

Rob,

The problem is that YBR can throw extremely thorny seedlings. The first blossom is light yellow, which doesn't bode well for hybridity. However, three out of three seedlings of this cross now are showing buds. If I were to start looking at the foliage, I could likely not discern whether my observations were more than just wishful thinking. If the remaining blossoms are single and pink that might be a good sign. Maybe I'll get you a picture.

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 62994Post Rob Byrnes
Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:22 pm

I hope you have some hybrids among the lot. Pictures would be cool :-)
Rob Byrnes

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 70951Post mntlover
Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:28 pm

Wondering what results were for juvenile bloom for Rugelda and Ann Endt. Any results???

I used Rugelda as seed parent. 27 seeds germinated.
2 plants had juvenile bloom. One of those died right after blooming. The other I still have. Waiting to see its second season. It bloomed two or three times first year. It is a gorgeous fully double red with strong fragrance. Not sure if it will be vigorous enough.

I kept two seedlings that had not bloomed yet because foliage was yellow, then gold, then bronze, then green. Separate thread where I asked about them as babies. They are both still growing, just beginning to leaf out for second season, so hopefully they will bloom this season.

Any thoughts as to what to do with these seedlings in the next step?
I did not realize that Rugelda wasn't that cold hardy when I purchased it, as it was on shelves with cold hardy plants and was a hybrid Rugosa. Need to check on help me find on my cell first.
THanks!
Duane

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 70962Post Rob Byrnes
Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:50 pm

Rugelda turned out to have little resistance to BS and defoliated so I did not move forward with the plans. Your fully double red sounds interesting Duane. Was that an Rugelda self seedling?
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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 70963Post Plazbo
Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:41 pm

Rob Byrnes wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:09 am
Joe,

Do your AE seedlings that are in bud show any traits from AE such as narrow leaves or thorniness?
Ive not found narrow leaves to be particularly dominant from Ann Endt seedlings, including OP....very thorny though (although to be fair the only low thorn near it is Therese Bugnet which is super thorny in the lower half).

No juvenile bloom from Ann Endt but sample size is only around 120 seedlings and a lot of that is with rugosas sooo juvenile bloom was unlikely.
Anyone able to send rosa californica (op) seeds to me in Australia?

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 70965Post mntlover
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:27 pm

Thanks Rob: not encouraging to hear about blackspot with Rugelda. I was using it to try to add vigor and health.
I had wanted cold hardiness, since it was a Rugosa, before I knew it wasn't that hardy. (THinking about Agnes, if I want to work hard with one.)
This was a cross Rugelda as seed parent with the only pollen I had at that moment (as I hadn't frozen any up till that time) which was The Squire, hence the Red and fully double, as well as fragrance. I think maybe the red on yellow increased the fragrance also. Fortunately I think I got the vigor I wanted from Rugelda, but we'll have to wait and see if it is enough.
Probably not going to get enough health from it though. This time I used Rambling Red, for more health along with cold hardiness. First seedling that germinated a bit ago is just now starting a bud on it, so seems strong growing, we'll see what the bloom is.

Thoughts for cold hardiness in the yellow department? Already seedlings I believe from pollen from Willliams Double Yellow. Certainly Spins seem a thorny option, but Rugosa seem no less in the thorn dept. WOrked a lot with Above and Beyond last season and several just germinated, from crosses in both directions, so we'll see how that goes. Otherwise I'll have to purchase some plants to move in that direction. Any recommendations???
Thanks!
Duane

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

Post: # 70970Post jbergeson
Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:05 pm

Duane,

I think Above & Beyond is one good path forward to combine yellow and hardy. Keep in mind it is not a reblooming rose and produces fewer than 1 in 6 reblooming seedlings when crossed with rebloomers. Therefore you have to grow larger quantities of seedlings from these crosses and cull to keep only those that bloom the first year.

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