Fall Newsletter

A meeting place for rose breeders.
Petelar
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Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59004Post Petelar
Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:23 pm

For those of you waiting for the Fall newsletter, I have been advised by our printer that the issue is printed, addressed and put in envelopes but did not make the post office processing window on Friday so it will be mailed on Monday morning 1/12/2015. The printer's heavier year-end workload plus holiday shutdowns contributed to the delay.

Betsy and Michel are currently working on the Winter issue so if you have input or articles for them, please send them in without further delay.

Since I did not handle the physical mailing, those of you whose memberships are due for renewal will not find renewal notices in your copy. You will receive a separate mailing.

Larry Peterson, Treasurer

jriekstins
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59014Post jriekstins
Sun Jan 11, 2015 4:27 pm

Betsy, Michael and Larry,
Great articles, beautiful cover. I am looking forward to my Setigera first bloom with anticipation.
]Jackie, SoCal., zone 9b,coastal foothills

Don
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59020Post Don
Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:21 pm

I heartily agree with Jackie. I really like having the ability to download the newsletter, too.

So, does anyone have a source for R. setigera seeds?

Also, can anyone say whether Wright's Liquid Smoke can be used to stimulate germination and, if so, which flavor works better - apple, hickory or mesquite?

http://www.wrightsliquidsmoke.com/products/
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

s_hardy
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59021Post s_hardy
Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:23 pm

I bought setigera seeds from Prairie Moon a few months ago, and got quick germination.

I hope my newer seeds like Colgin Mesquite Liquid Smoke, because that's what they're getting. Liquid Smoke was used successfully on red rice at 4-5% solution. http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?u ... i=scholarr

5% also worked for Setaria viridis. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0095109

Piligrass only needs a 1% solution, and even likes my brand. http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_P ... o10557.pdf

A number of prairie plants were tested with Wright's Hickory at 0.1%-1%. http://www.eiu.edu/biology/posters/2010-04.pdf

Don
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59023Post Don
Sun Jan 11, 2015 11:29 pm

That's what I get for trying to be funny.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

joverom
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59026Post joverom
Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:06 am

Don,

I have a large female R. setigera grown from seed obtained from the University of Minnesota Landscape Arboretum about 15 years ago. It was selected for the best hardiness in my Zone 3B from a large group of seedlings--now all are gone except for this rose and its male counterpart--almost as vigorous and hardy as the female. R. setigera is pretty marginal around here--I believe it is native to the southern part of Minnesota and around here, most seedlings suffered pretty extensive damage. My R. setigera tends to make it through most winters with just a bit of erratic dieback on some canes--mainly in the form of sun scald. I believe there has only been one winter that required it to be cut back to the snowline. It really is a pretty rose and much less prone to vigorous suckering than most species--maybe 4 or 5 suckers in all these years. I do prune it very aggressively each year--just to keep its massive size in check. This specimen crosses well with some diploids--it seems to like the polyanthas. I've had many hips take with various tetraploids but in those cases, nothing germinated. OP seeds from it germinate well and the crosses with the polyanthas germinate decently. I'd be happy to collect some seeds for you next year.
Julie Overom
Barnes, WI (Northwest Wisconsin, Zone 3)

Don
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59027Post Don
Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:18 am

Julie, I would be grateful to receive seeds of your setigera at your convenience. Thanks for offering.

My address has changed since we last corresponded so I'll send off a note with the new one.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

joverom
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59028Post joverom
Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:33 am

Don,

Email and all other info is still the same. Feel free to contact me directly. If you didn't hang onto the info, just send me a PM. If you are interested, I could check later this week and see if there are any hips left. The seeds are pretty small, though, and might be difficult to do an extraction on. If you want to stratify, they'd probably be germinating by May if you get them into the frig right away. Because they are the last seeds collected each season, I seldom give them any room temp stratification.

Julie

s_hardy
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59031Post s_hardy
Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:19 pm

Don wrote:That's what I get for trying to be funny.
Sorry to have sat on your joke. If it's any consolation, one of the studies I cited did actually test different brands and flavors, and found that three out of four S. viridis seeds prefer the taste of Wright's Hickory, though they never gave apple or pecan a chance. "We tested three different commercially available liquid smoke brands to determine if any of them would promote germination in S. viridis and found Wright's Liquid Smoke (Hickory) was most effective (Table S3)."

Don
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59034Post Don
Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:16 pm

I didn't notice karrikins listed in the ingredients of either Wrights or Colgin. Perhaps Prof. Davis can weigh in regarding his results. In his article (in the latest newsletter, which is what motivated this discussion) he reported mixed results with karrikins, the active ingredients in smoke that stimulate germination in some species.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

s_hardy
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59043Post s_hardy
Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:03 pm

For most kinds of roses it wasn't especially encouraging, but for the arkansana seed I just put in to soak (7 mmol/L nitrates, 1% liquid smoke), it looks a bit better.

At least some of the studies using Liquid Smoke, did so because they were unable to obtain pure karrikins to work with, and the production process for Liquid Smoke differs little from the smoke water method used by the Australian team. While Liquid Smoke is cheap, easily available and effective, using it is guesswork. Unless I try it on californica or spithamea, the rest of my bottle will probably become barbeque sauce, since there seems little reason to expect most roses to like it.

Don
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59044Post Don
Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:41 am

I don't know how the Colgin fares but the little yellow caps on the Wright bottles usually crack and disintegrate long before I use up the contents. Of course, I only use it for making boneless chuck roasts and only then a few drops are needed.

Wrap the chuck in foil with a mix of chopped onion, Heinz ketchup, mustard and a few drops of liquid smoke. Cook it low, slow and long. Admire the roses while it cooks just to keep on topic.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

david mears
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59045Post david mears
Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:54 am

Don,
you are making me hungry.

pgeurts
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59046Post pgeurts
Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:22 am

Andre,
I read your article on the Brownell roses with some interest. I’ve seen the “Sub Zero” roses advertised in the nursery catalogs for years and even thought about getting some but never have. But because of your experience with them my interest has been peaked and now I’d really like to try a few of them. The problem is I told myself I wasn’t going to purchase any more roses until after I moved so it’s going to take some restraint on my part not to get any.

I’ve been looking for and haven’t found yet a hardy, healthy repeat blooming yellow. So your experience with Golden Arctic has me thinking hard about getting one. One rose I had for a while but just culled last fall is Goldbusch, it’s a first generation offspring of Golden Glow. It was the hardiest repeat blooming yellow I had and was snow line hardy. The problem was that it was pretty susceptible to black spot and it passed that onto its offspring. I made many crosses with it but have very few seedlings to show from it because they were all culled. So Golden Arctic may be a better option.

I like the color of Lafter as it reminds me a lot of Lilian Austin which is probably my favorite color combination. The problem with LA is that it doesn’t do well in my yard and I don’t get many blooms from it. I also have gotten very few seedlings from it either as a seed parent or pollen parent. So Lafter may perform better in my yard and a Lafter x LA might make a good cross.
Paul Geurts
Zone 4 Minnesota

andre carl
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59047Post andre carl
Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:10 pm

I'm glad I inspired you to give them another look. They are a very special group of roses to me - especially the ones that were not overly advertised.

If you look at the photos of Lafter on hmf you will the first phot on the list http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.235655 was one I took in late fall. You should be able to see that the leaves are green all the way to the bottom of the plant. the plant at the time of the photo was a little over 6 feet tall at the time. I am not sure if we have the same strains of BS even though we are relatively close by, but if we assume they are the same strains I think you should expect similar disease resistance where BS is concerned. It definitely like to bloom so you will get plenty of those - even when it dies back significantly.

Golden Arctic is a very good yellow. It is relatively healthy (just some BS) and the hardiness is a lot better than most in its color class. It is definitely snowline hardy for me (if not a little bit beyond) but you are a little colder than I am so I don't know how it will do for you - it will come back every year though. I think combining it with something with just a touch more hardiness might be the start to creating that elusive hardy climbing repeat flowering yellow. I am going to see if I can combine it with some of my hybrid spins if they bloom this year - Hazeldean, Kilwinning and Prairie Peace are probably the ones I grow most likely to produce yellow. I might then add in some of my "yellow" bucks and other hardier shrubs to see if I can restore repeat again.

If you need any cuttings of these just let me know and I can see what I have this Spring or later on.

pgeurts
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59048Post pgeurts
Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:24 pm

Sure we could exchange some cuttings or even some pollen. I have a Prairie Peace OP that has been completely hardy here with good disease resistance (some BS). It’s a single yellow and it doesn’t repeat but it put on quite a show last year. I used it both as the seed parent and as a pollen parent last year. I got some (not many) seeds from it as the seed parent but had much better results as the pollen parent. I also have Julie’s EGS1(Easy Going x Suzanne). It doesn’t repeat either and I’ve only seen the occasional hip on it but it has wonderfully double blooms. I used it on Goldbusch several years ago but didn’t keep any seedlings. If it’s crossed with something healthier than Goldbusch than I think the results should be better. I could send you pollen of either or both.
Paul Geurts
Zone 4 Minnesota

PaulGOlsen
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59049Post PaulGOlsen
Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:02 pm

Andre,

I agree with you that 'Golden Arctic' appears to have superior cold hardiness for this type of rose. I saw it growing at the Ag Canada Morden Research Station a few years ago, which is Zone 3b, and I noted it was crown hardy. The shrub was flowering quite well.

Regarding the "elusive hardy climbing repeat flowering yellow," I've always believed that at some point in this breeding program Rosa laxa has to be injected in it. This could be at the beginning, for example, developing a species hybrid with Rosa maximowicziana. Or more directly, for example, 'Morden Sunrise' x Rosa laxa. Once a suitable yellow rose breeding line having Rosa laxa in it has been developed, then there are several options for further development of this type of rose. This includes combining it with Rosa kordesii L83 to hopefully increase disease resistance.
Paul G. Olsen
Rainy River, Ontario
Zone 3

Larry Davis
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 59070Post Larry Davis
Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:14 pm

The karrikins are derived from cellulose, so no need for special flavors. Pick your poison. The hardest thing is standardization of doses. Probably it varies by species of seed. Usually there is an n optimum dose with higher or lower doses working less well. I doubt that any does is really better than the nitrate treatment. That has been the observation in other species of plants. Karrikins help speed up germination, and may add to effect of low nitrate but probably not high nitrate. Or for seeds that after-ripen, they are effective for unripened seeds, but not for aged ones.

It may be that there are other germination stimulants in smoke water or liquid smoke that are not called karrikins. So you might hit on something interesting from liquid smoke.

About Golden Arctic. Back when we had winters cold enough to test it, GA did ok here, down to -10 to -20 F. But I only kept one bush bred from it though I had quite a few dozens of them to select from. The bud here in this climate was rather too double and quartered, color not strong and unfading like some of the modern yellows, I saw it looking really good in Rhode Island. Our summers were a bit too hot I think. Arctic Sunrise is the one bush I kept. I have a few that I can distribute if you are interested. It is both pink and yellow, see several years ago newsletter for pictures.

Hardy_
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Re: Fall Newsletter

Post: # 63178Post Hardy_
Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:34 am

Just for the record, 7 mmol/L nitrates + 1% liquid smoke gave me good germination of arkansana after 13 months of intermittent stratification.
SF Bay Area, California

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