Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

A meeting place for rose breeders.
Rob Byrnes
Posts: 1755
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57727Post Rob Byrnes
Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:06 pm

How about R. soulieana Crépin' (or a hybrid of) and rugosa together? Has that been done?

SalixGoclon
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:00 am
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57728Post SalixGoclon
Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:30 pm

That would be worth a try, but I am afraid of some horrid beast emerging. If I can get my hands on some String of Pearls pollen, I'll try it. If you have the space go ahaid, it sounds like fun.

Rob Byrnes
Posts: 1755
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57735Post Rob Byrnes
Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:09 am

I have MORsoul but it is a small plant. I can send pollen next season but please remind me. Disease resistance is not great and I would have tossed MORsoul a while ago due average resistance to BS but I'm wondering what might turn out from a MORsoul and rugosa match.

Besides being 50% R. soulieana MORsoul has a dose of R. wichurana Crepin through 0-47-19 as well. When used as the pollen parent, could MORsoul turn out dwarf and healthy rugosa types when combined with a tetraploid or fertile triploid rugosa? Something with the same pink as MORsoul would be nice.

Don
Posts: 1841
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57736Post Don
Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:33 am

>> I'm wondering what might turn out from a MORsoul and rugosa match.... could MORsoul turn out dwarf and healthy rugosa types when combined with a tetraploid or fertile triploid rugosa?

My experience has been that I'm lucky to even get a viable hybrid from a close-species cross.

Historically species F1's and F2's are seldom marketable. Usually the commercial benefits accrue more toward the F5 - F10 generation when refinements have been made.

It would be interesting in this regard to know what generation downstream of Hulthemia that the Eyeconics are.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

roseseek
Posts: 4984
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57737Post roseseek
Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:18 am

If you can believe the stated parentages, Bull's Eye, Raspberry Kiss, and therefore Eyes for You, are all third generation seedlings from Tigris, making them fourth generation from Hulthemia. Of course, there could always be selfs and other unreported generations in there, but that is what is reported to HMF.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Don
Posts: 1841
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57738Post Don
Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:24 am

I suspect Eyeconic Lemonade is farther along than that though.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

pierre
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:08 pm
Location: French Riviera
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57743Post pierre
Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:52 pm

Last year I got a fertile miniature from a rugosa derived probable diploid and a miniature.
Health strength and decorative habilities could be better just as fertility. A first try.

in my opinion rugosa healthyness is linked to its crimpled leaves plus little bristles abondance. A combination that often breaks down in hybrids.

SalixGoclon
Posts: 150
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:00 am
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57744Post SalixGoclon
Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:05 pm

Darn. What I really want is a thornless mini with crinkled leaves. To me, the crinkles are one of it's most attractive features, and it is good news (for me) that it is linked with health. Prickles on the other hand- well, that's a whole different story! Pierre, can you post some pictures?

pierre
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:08 pm
Location: French Riviera
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57747Post pierre
Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:47 pm

Sorry I never take pictures. A nice one is too fleatting. I want to look at reality. A personal view...

Crinkled foliage is easily lost as it is for this sdg.

In my opinion/experience crinkled leaves is linked to ephemeral crimped petals.
This said I do not consider rugosa as resistant other than said combination of crikling and bristles plus good air circulation.
The later missing it is a prey for every fungus.

Rob Byrnes
Posts: 1755
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57750Post Rob Byrnes
Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:45 pm

I also want miniature rugosas with the rugose leaf type

Paul G Olsen
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57793Post Paul G Olsen
Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:38 pm

Checking the progeny of the Rugosa 'Snow Pavement', I note there are only a few cultivars. One interesting one is 'Sointu', developed in Finland by Peter Joy in 1994. It has small, light pink fading to white, semi-double flowers. Height of the shrub is 100 - 120 cm. The staminate parent is Rosa multiflora var. nana. I realized that a breeding program of Rugosas with Rosa maximowicziana should be tried. This is a diploid species that has rarely been used in rose breeding, yet I think it has a lot of potential. I think it's likely cold hardy to Zone 4, but because it's a low, mounding shrub, in Zone 3 it will flower quite well. It also would be interesting to develop some species hybrids with it, for example, Rosa woodsii and Rosa foliolosa to use in a Rugosa breeding program.

Rob Byrnes
Posts: 1755
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57794Post Rob Byrnes
Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:32 am

Great ideas Paul. Is anyone growing White Mountains? It's a R. maximowicziana Regel hybrid that repeats.


Paul G Olsen
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2011 7:01 pm
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57796Post Paul G Olsen
Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:07 am

Rob,

I have grown it in Thunder Bay, Ontario (Zone 3). I also established it at the Edmonton, Alberta Devonian Botanic Garden rose garden, but apparently it's no longer there. It winter kills somewhat in Zone 3, although it will produce flowers fairly well. I never thought of it before, but perhaps it's useful to develop Pillar or Climbing roses for a Zone 3 climate if combined with, for example, simple Rosa laxa hybrids that would add cold hardiness. Like Rosa laxa x 'Hazeldean'. Thanks for mentioning it.

Rob Byrnes
Posts: 1755
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 57801Post Rob Byrnes
Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:36 am

Paul,

Like your thoughts on WM for hardy Pillar or Climbing roses in Zone 3. You got me thinking that White Mountains could also be useful in my attempt to get some miniature/small stature roses for zone 3. Anyone growing this one?

Karl K
Posts: 1226
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 58646Post Karl K
Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:57 pm

Rob Byrnes wrote: You got me thinking that White Mountains could also be useful in my attempt to get some miniature/small stature roses for zone 3. Anyone growing this one?
In 1978 Lyndon Lyon, best known for his African Violets, wrote:
"I had a row of Edward Baker Risley's climbing 'White Mountains', a derivative of Rosa maximowicsiana, alternating with his 'Durham Pillar' nailed on the barn. Open pollinated seed of 'White Mountain' surprisingly gave me, among others, one very miniature everblooming plant which has since had such influence in miniaturizing our smallest roses. All of our miniature roses with flowers that turn green as they age, show this influence."
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... i1978.html

He also used some Rugosa hybrids in breeding miniatures.

Rob Byrnes
Posts: 1755
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 58654Post Rob Byrnes
Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:07 am

Thank you for the quote and link Karl. I sure wish I could fiond White Mountains!

Thanks again,

Rob

Rob Byrnes
Posts: 1755
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:34 pm
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 58674Post Rob Byrnes
Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:14 am

Actually, what I'd really like is the very miniature everblooming plant from the OP seed of White Mountain. Most of his miniatures parentage were not ID'd. The vast majority are not available now as well.

roseseek
Posts: 4984
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:54 pm
Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 58676Post roseseek
Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:38 am

Frustrating, isn't it? Herbert Zipper released several minis bred from Maytime which were rated as highly disease resistant. How much they really were and how much was specific to his garden, who knows? But, the potential of them being useful won't likely ever be determined as none seem to exist anywhere.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Karl K
Posts: 1226
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:49 pm
Contact:

Re: Rugosas - Why the lack of breeding activity?

Post: # 58677Post Karl K
Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:44 am

Rob Byrnes wrote:Actually, what I'd really like is the very miniature everblooming plant from the OP seed of White Mountain. Most of his miniatures parentage were not ID'd. The vast majority are not available now as well.
Rob,
I understand. When I found the article, I was pleased and a little excited. I knew of Lyon only as the African Violet guy. The information is interesting so far as it gives us some idea of what might come from non-miniature plants. But it is very frustrating that none of the plants mentioned are available. 'Giggle' is a later development that may or may not be connected to his earlier introductions.

There are no roses listed on the http://www.lyndonlyon.com, but maybe someone out there in internet-land could turn up an old catalog with a little more information on his roses.

Do you suppose a hardy miniature rose could survive in a garden for so many years? Or maybe someone has one in a pot that has been handed down through the generations.

A few years ago a 70-ish neighbor invited me over to see a rose she had grown from a cutting at her mother's place in West Virginia. I was delighted to see an heirloom 'Blush Damask' that perfectly matched pictures I had taken in California.

No telling what might be out there, propagated and preserved by gardeners who don't belong to garden clubs or internet groups.

Karl

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest