Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

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Paul G Olsen
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Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

Post: # 57173Post Paul G Olsen
Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:16 am

It's astonishing that apparently little work has been done using 'Double Carlos Red' ('Albertan' x 'Carlos Red') in a breeding program. It's a remarkable development by Robert Erskine, who first crossed 'Athabasca' with Rosa woodsii and then crossed a selection with 'Carlos Red' (Rosa woodsii). The flowers are semi-double pink and about 5 cm. in diameter. If 'Athabasca' is pure Rosa woodsii, which it likely is, then this cultivar is 100% Rosa woodsii. The shrub, of course, is super hardy.

I recall using 'Hansa' with it several years ago, but for whatever reason I never got any selections. But it should be used with Rugosas to inject cold hardiness. Especially 'Schneezwerg' and 'Aylsham', which aren't pure Rugosa and so therefore might produce some interesting shrub forms.

Wouldn't it be interesting to also cross it with Rosa multiflora and R. wichurana?

I'm not aware this cultivar is located in the States. If not, it should be.

Brentwood Bay Nurseries, located on Vancouver Island, has several plants. They were propagated from softwood cuttings I sent to them from the shrub located at the St. Albert Botanic Park rose garden, which is near Edmonton, Alberta.

Plazbo
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Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

Post: # 70340Post Plazbo
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:34 am

Just a random observation from seedlings grown from Sheffield seeds. It's easy to distinguish which is which without seeing the label, woodsii seedlings have much bluer foliage where blanda are mid green.

Blanda seedlings also seem more prone to dying....which may or may not explain why there doesn't seem to be a blanda plant in this country.

Karl K
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Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

Post: # 70341Post Karl K
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:02 pm

Plazbo wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:34 am
Just a random observation from seedlings grown from Sheffield seeds. It's easy to distinguish which is which without seeing the label, woodsii seedlings have much bluer foliage where blanda are mid green.

Blanda seedlings also seem more prone to dying....which may or may not explain why there doesn't seem to be a blanda plant in this country.
This is interesting information.

I have seen neither of these species, so all I know is what I've read. For example, according to Erlanson, R. woodsii averages around 65 stamens, whereas R. blanda averages almost double (115). And I gather that R. woodsii likely receives less rainfall in a year than its Eastern cousin. These two species seem to have been separate in the distant past, but have partly merged as their ranges came to overlap. And isn't R. woodsii more tolerant of alkaline soil than R. blanda?
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/species.htm

Boulanger (1937) had difficulty finding any genuine differences between R. blanda and R. cinnamomea.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1937.html

I imagine that other members (e.g., R. davurica) of this widespread species (or species complex) would behave similarly in breeding, while each might contribute other useful differences in adaptation.

Plazbo
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Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

Post: # 70343Post Plazbo
Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:54 pm

It was just something that stood out while i was looking due to various people saying they are the same. The difference may disappear as the plants get larger but at this roughly inch height theres an obvious foliage colour difference.

If blanda is very opppsed to alkalinity it may be the main contributor to death, while they are potted in acid potting mix, water here is alkaline. That or it could just be the very variable weather (everything is outside) with light frosts to 80+ happening on any given day during late winter/early spring. They wont all die, some are doing much better than others, so its not a problem...just the first wave of natural culling for my environment. Amusingly rugosa seedlings seem to have a less than 1% morality rate, amusing in the sense that you actively need to hunt down rugosa here but in general seem to be the least care neccessary option.

I also have davurica seedlings (along with any other dip cin type i had access too) so may have insights on their breeding in several years

jbergeson
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Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

Post: # 70345Post jbergeson
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:18 am

Some thoughts and questions:

I got my R. woodsii from Lawyer Nurseries. Since then I planted out an outdoor seedling bed and selected a few more seedlings for health and low thorns. I have one that is nearly thornless. It might be a cross with the apparently diploid R. acicularis (also from Lawyer) that were growing nearby.

For the record, I don't have a lot of confidence in species labeling. There is so much variation within a species, potential intercrossing, and when a nursery gets involved mistakes happen and inaccuracies are compounded.

I have started calling the plant that I got labeled "R. davidii" R. davurica because it seems to make sense based on it's characteristics. I have noticed it's similarity to my R. woodsii and R. acicularis in that they all have thin, wiry stems, upright growth and are hardy to the very tips. It has a lovely hip display right now and seems healthier than my R. woodsii's.

Has anyone succeeded in recovering rebloom from Metis? I'm wondering if Therese Bugnet could have contributed reblooming genes that could be recovered in a cross with a rebloomer. I have hips on Metis from Catherine Guelda pollen this year, so if I get enough germinations maybe I'll see if there are any rebloomers. Also some hips set on Pretty Polly Pink from Metis pollen. Fingers crossed for germination, as I've had poor results with polyantha seed in the past.

I haven't figured out where to go with R. woodsii and R. davurica. I would like to incorporate their extreme hardiness with increased blossom life and rebloom. I'm hesitant to go down the rugosa pathway, mostly out of a prejudice born of iron chlorosis, poor blossom form, and delayed remontancy among rugosa seedlings. I know I should, but I don't know if I have the patience. So I think I'll try pollinating Pretty Polly Pink with the R. woodsii next season, as I think I've cracked the code for getting polyanthas to set seed with diverse pollen.

Karl K
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Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

Post: # 70348Post Karl K
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:42 am

jbergeson wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:18 am
For the record, I don't have a lot of confidence in species labeling. There is so much variation within a species, potential intercrossing, and when a nursery gets involved mistakes happen and inaccuracies are compounded.
Gordon Rowley discussed this problem back in 1951.
"Sometimes it is even possible to suggest, on cytological grounds, the other parent of such aberrant individuals. Five Kew seedlings received as Rosa pendulina (tetraploid) turned out, surprisingly enough, to be all heptaploid, with somatic counts of 2n=49 (or very nearly so). Examination of the Kew "pendulinas" revealed one that was an octoploid under the name of R. balsamea, and next to it as its nearest neighbour a hexaploid, R. nutkana. Perhaps these were the parents of the mysterious heptaploids which, for all their odd ancestry, flower well and seem remarkably fertile."
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/RowleySeeds1951.html

And I will add that from what I've read on the subject, I have never seen a genuine Rosa rugosa. The species is supposed to be once-blooming, sometimes with scattered repeat. The blooms should be borne singly, or sometimes in pairs. A dependably reblooming plant with clusters of flowers would not be recognized as R. rugosa by Thunberg if he happened across it in a garden. In fact, the Rugosas that we now have originated from seeds collected in a Japanese garden. No telling what the other parent(s) might have been.

Also, early sources agree that the leaves of R. rugosa (as R. ferox) should be tiny ... like R. wichuraiana. Leaflets just over 1 inch would be about right.

And somewhere in my notes I have Hurst's comment that American species seem to be more nearly true-breeding than European species. Maybe after the "species" were passed along by seed from garden to garden for a few decades.
Karl

Plazbo
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Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

Post: # 70354Post Plazbo
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:56 pm

jbergeson wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:18 am
I'm hesitant to go down the rugosa pathway, mostly out of a prejudice born of iron chlorosis, poor blossom form, and delayed remontancy among rugosa seedlings. I know I should, but I don't know if I have the patience.
In theory, the delayed remontancy could be bred out without straying too far, it'd just take a lot of numbers and/or luck. There are references of various rugosa(ish) hybrids throwing juvenile bloomers (Belle Poitevine, Ann Endt, Therese Bugnet, Calocarpa, Will Alderman etc probably Sydney and Bonavista would be capable to). Try breed those with each other, cross fingers you get juvenile bloomers. If wanting to, you could discard any rose that doesn't bloom in 2 or 3 months to minimize space. If you get juvenile bloomers cross them with each other to determine the % of juvenile bloomers to see if it's a fixed trait or not.

Benefit after that step is being fairly certain any once bloomers are likely outcrosses, so only select juvenile bloomers from those once bloomers that also have the intended characteristics from the original cross. Sure it turns every introgression from a once bloomer into a 2 step process but once you've got the genes you're looking for into that juvenile blooming population....you're not having to wait years every step.

It's something I'm attempting this season but my access to some of those cultivars is non existent, there will be a lot of Calocarpa/Therese Bugnet/Ann Endt crossings made over the next few months. Even if only 1 juvenile bloomer turns up, I can hopefully cross it back to those three for increased odd's on breeding more and then work on introgressing traits into the resulting population.

The other sideshoot/plan of attack is Calocarpa, it's parentage being what it is, cross it with any dip juvenile bloomers (poly/tea/china/modern dip) select any juvenile blooming offspring with rugosa influence, see if those will accept rugosa pollen and then following that through to an F2 population.

I'd prefer to be crossing Calocarpa/Sydney/Bonavista though given the similar nature of their potential juvenile bloomers, but Bonavista and Sydney never came to Australia, but it's possibly an easier first step to get the initial population with juvenile bloom and then work in something (possibly R. woodsii and R. davurica) without iron chlorosis issues to fix that problem....but yes, patience would be required

Karl K
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Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

Post: # 70359Post Karl K
Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:25 pm

Looks like Rosa woodsii has a lot of geographical adaptation to share if one could collect an assortment. There's a lot more going on than just color variations and doubling.

New Phytol. 37: 72-81. 1938
PHYLOGENY AND POLYPLOIDY IN ROSA
EILEEN W. ERLANSON, D.Sc.
p. 75
The greatest geographical range of a rose in America is that of R. Woodsii Lindl., a simple diploid form which stretches from the coast of Alaska to Chihuahua, Mexico.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... y1938.html

Karl K
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Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

Post: # 70367Post Karl K
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:37 pm

Karl K wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:02 pm
And isn't R. woodsii more tolerant of alkaline soil than R. blanda?
I checked again. Apparently R. woodsii ranges from acidic soils to somewhat alkaline, and damp to dry. I don't know whether there are especially alkaline-tolerant selections like there are in R. blanda.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1918.html

Plazbo
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Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

Post: # 70646Post Plazbo
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:55 am

Just a few months on and seed grown woodsii are doing far better, confident multiple will reach maturity, one of them in particular is very vigorous. Still very blue foliage (which is funny given the bare root fedt i got is quite yellow...possibly drought/heat related)

The seed grown blanda though are iffy at best, 1 of them is doing fairly ok and should mature with a little extra attention but not confident any of the other seedlings will, they dont seem to be doing much if anything at all, no vigor.

Likely only 1 davurica to reach maturity and will need extra attention (due to drought and very dry heat...things fry)

Palustris seedlings are doing very well though, many of those will reach maturity.

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