Identifying and filling niche markets

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Warren
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 55299Post Warren
Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:05 pm

Joe would you like me to send you some 'Frau Dagmar Hastrup' seeds. I used 'Frau Dagmar Hastrup' one year in a breeding cycle and the offspring were the spitting image of the seed parent , so I gathered they were self pollinated. These seedlings flowered within 6 months of germination, and they never stop blooming all the growing season ,so their repeat is surely incredible. In the winter they do defoliate like other Rugosa's and hip formation is in vast numbers.

Warren

jbergeson
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 55300Post jbergeson
Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:44 pm

No, thanks, Warren. I'm way overloaded with seeds and I have plenty from Belle Poitevine and Rugosa #3 which, although maybe not selfs, can still be experimented with. Thanks, though.

pierre
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 55307Post pierre
Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:53 am

Joe wrote: "...planting a rugosa, Grouse, and Lena near each other and removed from any other roses. Then the OP seeds from them will likely all be crosses between two of the three."

This way easily you will get Grouse x Lena and reverse hybrids. Very few if any including rugosa because of very low affinity.

cathymess
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 55308Post cathymess
Sun Jan 12, 2014 5:13 am

Here is another idea: a better rootstock rose. One that is drought-hardy and has better budding features that today's rootstock.

Cathy
Central NJ

Warren
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 55317Post Warren
Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:43 pm

Cathy in Europe they use Rosa canina 'Laxa'' because of its toughness and its ability to withstand wetter soils .

Warren

pierre
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 55323Post pierre
Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:47 am

".. in Europe they use Rosa canina 'Laxa'' because of its toughness and its ability to withstand wetter soils ."

Not much difference with canina inermis the prevalent rootstock here. Usually laxa is the choice for vars that have less grafting compatibility with inermis.

This said every nurseryman has his own preference and choice are quite varied according to environment and goals.

dmears
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 55325Post dmears
Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:39 am

pierre, do the rootstocks which you use, start as seed or cuttings.

pierre
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 55333Post pierre
Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:57 pm

I do not use rootstocks myself as I breed for ownroot roses.

I was dealing with nurseries practices.

Many garden roses rootstocks are seed grown here.

Many florist roses rootstocks are cuttings.

dmears
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 55334Post dmears
Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:36 pm

Thanks Pierre, I have been looking at the rootstocks around Europe and found most to be R. laxa and grown from seed.

Charles Calaforra
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 55373Post Charles Calaforra
Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:09 pm

"Possible niches for us to focus on:
-Development of unusual leaf shapes and colors. Very long strap like leaves, giant leaves, tiny leaves, red or blue leaves, variegated leaves.
-Very shade tolerant
-Unique insect or disease resistance. Japanese Beetles, Root Knot Nematodes, Rose Rosette Disease, Chilli Thrips, etc...
-Extreme drought tolerance
-Extreme cold tolerance
-Extreme poor soil tolerance
-Wet soil tolerance

What would be the best way to accomplish these goals."

For long narrow leaves, some Chinas have that trait, Palustris and Banksia also, so mixing these would be a good start.
For giant leaves, some Hybrid Perpetuals and HTs have large leaves. Cross and cull for large foliage. We'd have to select carefully against blackspot.
For tiny leaves, Roxburghii, some Chinas, miniatures and polys would be good things to mix for this.
For red leaves, many teas have red new growth, and many deciduous varieties have red fall foliage and stems. Crossing these would be a good start.
For blue leaves, Glauca, Fedtschenkoana, several new and antique varieties have this. Cross different sources to try to intensify the blueness.
For variegated foliage, I don't know of any non-virus induced ones, but with so many varieties in the world it wouldn't surprise me if some of you know of one.
For textured foliage, Rugosa.
For shade tolerance, Hybrid Musks, some Chinas, some Bucks, some Albas. Anyone with a tree can select seedlings for this.
For unique insects and diseases, this would have to be done locally. It would be unethical to import dangerous insects.
For drought tolerance, do you have the willpower to withhold water, if yes, then this is simple. Use plastic sheeting if rain threatens.
Cold tolerance, tested locally.
Poor soil tolerance, home improvement stores sell sand, grow them in that. pH can be manipulated with sulfur and lime.
Wet soil tolerance, mud is easy to make. Palustris and Clinophylla are good starting points.
For edible hips, Rugosa, Roxburgii, Gigantea would be good starting points. Look for other varieties that have few internal hip hairs, Carefree Beauty and Old Blush come to mind as being pretty clean inside, there are many others. Look for varieties that have a high flesh to seed ratio. Nibble on your ripe hips, make notes on the flavor.

If each of us picks a niche project to work on, we, as a group, will have access to several unique specimen.

kim rupert
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 55376Post kim rupert
Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:06 pm

Charles, multiflora produces the narrow, strap-like, "peach tree" foliage quite easily, though it also often results in chlorosis issues and potential susceptibility to RRD/RRV. Colorful foliage can come from some pretty unexpected directions. This is April Mooncrest X Pookah. No signs of it being deciduous, so this color should be here to stay.

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Charles Calaforra
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 55378Post Charles Calaforra
Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:04 pm

That's impressive Kim, it will really stand out in a sea of green foliaged roses. Strap-like foliage will have to be elongated quite a bit more than what's currently available before I consider it strap-like, the genes for it are available though, so it's possible.

johannes p
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 55380Post johannes p
Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:57 am

I know that I harp on it much before but I look back to diploids especially the Canadian introductions. I am so close to expanding the other colours. I throw out the HTs etc and start afresh.
Also tetraploid rugosas are less disease resistant for some reason. I've tried them, they have been developed before but there is a reason that they have never taken off.

Neil
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 55386Post Neil
Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:19 pm

Very nice Kim,

What caught my attention was "none deciduous". I checked out the close public rose gardens and Kashmir, Lavender Meidiland and a so-so Peppermint Pop had the same.

Peter Mayle, purple canes was on a par with my bright green canes for the winter look. Most of my roses and most of the public garden roses where pruned.

To me it makes a big difference how they look in the winter months.

I think these traits will be much bigger than a niche market.

Neil

kim rupert
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 55390Post kim rupert
Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:47 am

Thank you Charles and Neil. I agree with you. Basye's Blueberry has reddish wood once it drops its foliage. Dr. Basye reported he named it Blueberry because it resembles a blueberry bush in fall/winter. It's pretty! Legacy also produces that colored wood as do many of its seedlings. Lynnie, Indian Love Call, Carlin's Rhythm and Ralph Moore's hybrids all share the colored fall/winter wood with it. I'm thrilled this seedling expresses this, from who knows where, without containing any Legacy genes and without shedding all of its foliage here, maintaining that lovely color. We haven't really had any "winter" yet, with temps remaining in the seventies to high eighties and only less than a quarter of an inch of rain for the SEASON, so far. The season is almost half over, so if we're to received the nearly fifteen inches of annual rainfall, we're going to need some epic storms in the next 60+ days.

I'm excited how this is going to look in a mixed border. I won't have to resort to a loropetalum or other burgundy to purple leaved shrub for some color interest. And, this has fragrant, repeated flowers!

Rob Byrnes
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 68138Post Rob Byrnes
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:19 pm

jbergeson wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:22 pm
Hardiness, species toughness, compact growth habit, and repeat bloom. How do we accomplish this? I have vague ideas of creating a tetraploid rugosa, crossing it with virginiana, and then recovering repeat somehow. That doesn't address the compactness. Pierre said in another thread that he is succeeding in creating micro-minis. I'd love to hear more about how he is doing that. And I'd love to hear from anyone who has ideas of where to start in a journey towards vigorous but truly compact plants.
Hi Joe. Are you still interested in micro minis? I raised a number of them this season that derive in part from Petit Pink, Never Alone, Campfire, REMORSOUL (Royal Edward x MORsoul), REPP (Royal Edward x Prairie Peace), and MMILC (Morning Magic x ILC1-72-1). I'll be crossing these back to zone 2/3 roses next season to increase hardiness. Next season I'll be using Frontenac, Campfire, Never Alone, Canadian Shield, Ramblin Red, Orantida, Basye's Blueberry, and Quadra as the other parent. I'm also be using some of your 11Z29 hybrids and FIVI3.

The goal is to create compact plants hardy to zone 3. This season I'm seeing excellent disease resistance as well. I have one micro mini that came from a cross of Robert Rippetoe's (PLTXSL) with your FIVI3. I have other seedlings from that cross that haven't bloomed this first season but this one is a repeat bloomer. It has small leaves and tiny single orange/salmon blooms and is nearly thornless. I'm very curious if this truly is a FIVI3 hybrid. It is completely disease free so far and has a very good bloom cycle.

You mentioned compact rugosa. I have RUGO13.3 that is, RUGOTREAT X 13-1. RUGOTREAT is supposed to be an chemically induced tetraploid so I'm assuming RUGO13.3 is as well. RUGO13.3 had a bud this first season but something ate it so I didn't get to see the bloom. It has small leaves and appears that it will be a smaller shrub. Resistance is good.

I also have some of what might end up being micro minis from Nyveldt's White x 13-1. I'm assuming the ploidy will be triploid. Very good resistance so far with these. Very small leaves and none over 6" tall. I'm hoping for some fertile triploids.

Would love to hear if you've done any work towards obtaining micro minis.
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

jbergeson
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 68141Post jbergeson
Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:27 am

Hi Rob,

I can't say that I'm currently focused on micro-minis. I just want hardiness, health, rebloom, and a neat plant habit. I think low-growing landscape roses can be obtained both by using minis and by using roses that spread horizontally like the Drift roses.

When I get dwarfed seedlings I usually assume that they'll never amount to anything and discard them. They would need to also display excellent vigor, since it seems like most of them just don't end up growing strongly enough to build themselves up.

I am definitely a sucker for a shrubby, neatly mounded plant form in any size. Candy Oh! does that, and a couple of my seedlings.

The large majority of my FIVI3 crosses didn't bloom, but there are a handful that have including a White Out x FIVI3 that seems very different than either parent and is quite compact. Congrats on your results with minis so far! It's always fun to find seedlings with excellent disease resistance and the characteristics we like.

jbergeson
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 68146Post jbergeson
Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:42 pm

Hi Rob!

I haven't been focused on the micro-minis. Every once in a while I'll get a very dwarf plant but I don't think that's the same thing...they seem to lack vigor and I usually discard them. I would be happy with a very compact plant or a low, spreading habit. Minis might be useful to tame the monstrous vigor of R. carolina and R. virginiana, or perhaps a spreading rose could redirect that vertical vigor horizontally. For me, first comes hardiness, disease resistance, and remontancy. Along the way I will select for "bushiness". So far I'm creating a lot of monsters in my attempt to integrate R. carolina or R. virginiana with modern roses.

Have you ever tried Oso Easy Fragrant Spreader? I don't have it any more, but I have a lot of OP F1's and F2's and they are low growing, healthy so far, and pretty.

Not much disease pressure here yet this year.

Oops, looks like I already replied...oh, well, slightly different info in this response.

srpshoy

Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 68147Post srpshoy
Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:53 pm

I have two micro seedlings this year - both technically mini Chinas. One is from the found rose Dolly Dudley and the other from Abbott and Burns Family Rose. Rob I'd be interested in trading cuttings from my collection.
My breeding goal is to create roses that grow/perform well in my region (high heat, high humidity, minimal chemical intervention).
Stephen

Rob Byrnes
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Re: Identifying and filling niche markets

Post: # 68149Post Rob Byrnes
Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:06 pm

Stephen,

Glad to see someone else is enjoying micro minis. I have three (possibly a few more) right now. They are BYRepp1, BYRepp2 and BYRoepc. I'll get pictures up for the 2nd and third soon. I have one pic of BYRoepc up on HMF right now. BYRoepc might be a bit small to take cuttings right now but I'll check and let you know. The first two are siblings and come from (Royal Edward x Prairie Peace) x (Morning Magic x ILC1-72-1). I seemed to get a number of minis by using the pollen parent. BYRepp1 is probably a dead end as each pompom bloom has a bit of green proliferation. I kind of think it adds to the look of the bloom.

The last comes from (OEPC x Lemon Splash) x Petit Pink. The OEPC in the seed parent is a seedling of Oso Easy Peachy Cream.

All three are disease free for me here in BS heaven. Let me know if your interested in what cuttings I can take.
Rob Byrnes

Historic Village of Roebling, NJ Zone 7a
On the right bank of the Delaware River

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