Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

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Rob Byrnes
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41649Post Rob Byrnes
Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:34 pm

Michael,

Can you explain the difference between dwarf and miniature? Also, if you remember off the top of your head could you name a few dwarfs that I could look up on HMF? Thanks in advance.

Rob
Rob Byrnes

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PTGeurts
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41651Post PTGeurts
Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:31 pm

Philip,

It’s possible that a (R.glauca x diploid) could be fertile. I just re-read a paper by Isabelle Preston that states she had an open pollinated seedling of an (R.glauca x R.rugosa) plant. So it is possible that they can set seed and produce seedlings.

Here is a link to a site that has lots of good information where you can read the papers I've mentioned and others.

http://bulbnrose.org/Roses/breeding/rose_brd.htm

In a cross of R.glauca x repeat blooming diploid, R.glauca would contribute (3) non-repeat bloom alleles to the offspring and the diploid would contribute (1) repeat bloom allele. So the offspring would have (3) non- repeat and (1) repeat bloom alleles. Assuming that the 1st generation offspring had normal meiosis, 50% of its pollen and eggs would have one allele for repeat bloom and 50% would have none. Self pollination or crossing of two 1st generation plants would result in 25% without any repeat bloom alleles, 50% with one and 25% with two in the 2nd generation offspring. The 2nd generation offspring with two repeat bloom alleles would still have two non-repeat bloom alleles so they wouldn’t have repeat bloom either. So after 2 generations you still don't have offspring any with repeat bloom. This is going to be a longer term endeavor than you thought.
Paul Geurts
Cokato, Minnesota - USA Zone 4

jbergeson
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41652Post jbergeson
Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:04 pm

Could R. glauca work as a pollen parent to pollinate a diploid, then? Any examples of this succeeding? One could recover rebloom much more quickly.

I'm thinking of David Z's Candy Oh x R. glauca. Probably too wide of a cross to take, eh?
Joe Bergeson
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Don
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41653Post Don
Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:10 pm

>> Probably too wide of a cross to take, eh?

Never say never. If it was easy then we would be doing something else.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

kim rupert
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41654Post kim rupert
Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:33 pm

The greatest potential gains are from the widest, most difficult crosses. The closer, easier crosses are what Ralph termed, "stirring the pot". Nothing new ever comes from pot stirring. Not all "new" things are beneficial, but the only way to obtain beneficials is to weed through all the awful things mined from far reaching combinations.

PTGeurts
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41656Post PTGeurts
Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:02 pm

Joe,

Yes it could be possible to use R.glauca as the pollen parent with a diploid repeat blooming rose and that may be an easier route than the other way around. But using R.glauca as the pollen parent will also reduce how much influence it has on the seedlings and they will look a lot less like R.glauca than using it as the seed parent.

I had read that the dog roses were bridge roses. Meaning they could act as a bridge between species that didn’t normally cross pollinate because they would cross with most things. My experience with R.glauca is that this is not always the case. Last year I tried R.glauca on both Marie Pavie and La Marne and got just a couple hips, few seeds and no seedlings. Though five years ago I had some R.blanda seedlings that to me had R.glauca features and I’ve read of R.glauca pollen taking on R.rugosa, so R.glauca seams to take on members of the Cinnamomae section easier than members of the Synstylae section. Here is a picture of leaves from a R.blanda on the left, R.glauca on the right and an R.blanda seedling in the middle.

[attachment 373 leafcomparison800x600.jpg]

You could certainly try some R.glauca pollen on Candy Oh Hi Vivid Red to see what happens, you may have better luck than I had. Like they say nothing ventured nothing gained.
Paul Geurts
Cokato, Minnesota - USA Zone 4

Warren
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41662Post Warren
Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:46 am

Would be interesting to do a DNA Strip on a Caninae species or cultivar ( Alba's) with their unusual septet configuration (4+ 1, 4+2 or 5+1). Then do a strip on the pollen and seed gametes to see where everything goes, This could be interesting when determining which way you would cross
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pacificjade
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41663Post pacificjade
Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:57 am

I stopped worrying and just cross.
[color=#006400]Zone 8B, Pacific Northwest, USA[/color]

kim rupert
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41664Post kim rupert
Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:33 am

That was a common thread through two and a half decades of conversations with Ralph. "The rose will find the way." He might determine the ploidy just out of interest, but he otherwise ignored them. If it didn't work one way, it would another, or in another season. He had many decades, but time usually proved him right.

pacificjade
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41665Post pacificjade
Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:01 am

I think it is wise, with the added note that if somethign is with the grain and quicker, that that might be even wiser.

Regarding Caninae, which I have many hybrids of, I once did Rosa canina x Rosa multiflora. What a mess! I still have one by accident. It was left on my family's property. They were 100% identical, which were all runted multiflora replicas. It was not expected. I was merely seeing if I could breed a rootstock, because I was bored and curious. Yeah, uhm.... stems about as wide as pencil lead! The one that was accidently kept is about 1' x 1', albeit healthy, and it has never bloomed. My only assumption was complete genetic incompatibility, lol, which may explain why I dont see canina/multiflora hybrids spread in the wild here, since theyre both "naturalized".
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Neil
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41667Post Neil
Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:35 am

A little known truth that rocket scientist are aware of is once your work bench is (conditioned) the little black box works. Most of the time just in that spot. The same thing could apply to plants. These roses are just going to do what they want and I`m along for the ride. I keep saying, show me what you got, and sooner I hope they will start trying harder. Neil

philip_la
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41668Post philip_la
Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:15 am

Right... My F2 should have read F3 as I was considering the F2 of the first cross, and not the glauca. So after many years and several crosses, I can count on 1/16 of the F3's being useless. Ugh.

An interesting article on the allopolyploid speciation of caninae for the nerds among us who like to try and decipher such stuff:

http://books.google.com/books?id=yG7M3d ... ae&f=false

After learning of the concept of alloploids, I wondered if the caninae might have arisen through allopolyploid speciation, so I googled it. Not that such affects what we know with regards to hybridizing, but interesting nonetheless. It provides an interesting route for cladogenesis, but as the species quickly reach stasis, I don't think there are really any additional implications for hybridizers considering using the dog roses.
Philip F.
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Warren
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41673Post Warren
Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:19 pm

I am not sure who it was, but there is this chaps therory that all roses evolved from a single artic decaploid rose dropping ploidy numbers as they interbred, and then there is the other therory, that ploidy numbers increased as they interbred. Its all sort of like the Astro Physicists two therorys of the expanding and contracting universe.

But honestly, the way I look at it, does it matter what ploidy rose you use, if it gives you the results your after and its fertile in one way or an other, thats the important thing.
Deniliquin, New South Wales, Australia
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Don
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41692Post Don
Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:26 am

The best lessons about breeding come from other breeders. He may not have used the species itself directly but Wilhelm Kordes II thought enough of the caninae R. rubignosa to produce Obergärtner Wiebicke, Goldbusch, Cläre Grammerstorf and Maiwunder.

The rare Cläre has been put to work by some of our members. Maiwunder looks like it makes more carotenoids than Cläre but, alas, is only listed in a single garden in Germany.

If anybody in the USA has a copy of Maiwunder I'd be happy to take some OP seeds off of your hands next season.
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

pacificjade
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41693Post pacificjade
Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:50 am

I did try Gelber Engel pollen, which is supposedly 1/4 CG. I believe it stuck. Likewise, my various caninae hybrids' pollen stuck on modern tetraploids and switch-hitter triploids (Bonica, for example).
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Warren
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41694Post Warren
Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:53 am

Don a few years ago I did this cross, one of mine Mimas X Maigold and got this. Flowers like a beaut and gets covered in hips,

[attachment 379 003.jpg]
Deniliquin, New South Wales, Australia
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Charles Calaforra
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41698Post Charles Calaforra
Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:33 pm

I like diploids as they tend to be healthier, but most moderns are tetraploid and they do have thicker petals and leaves. I prefer final products to be triploid, as they have the best of both worlds and they usually don't waste much energy making hips. An example, I made a Carefree Beauty x Old Blush which I like. Carefree Beauty 4x and Old Blush 2x are both good plants, but they spend a lot of energy making hips, which for me is fine but most consumers don't care about hips. I crossed them and got a triploid that looks very much like CB except that it produces more flowers and no hips. Better final product. Carry diploid lines and tetraploid lines and cross them when you want a final product. Not an original thought, but there you have it.
Don't forget. Your time here is short.

Warren
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41699Post Warren
Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:00 pm

Charles I found when using Tea's X Mod Tet , I get very full doubles. Some retain their reproductive organs , but a lot go extreme doubles, with stamens and sometimes stigma's being converted to petaloids. I did a Safrano X Gold Bunny and kept three, a single, double and a full double. The full double has its reproductive organs replaced with petaloids.

[attachment 380 017.jpg]

[attachment 381 020.jpg]

[attachment 382 SAFBUN01.jpg]
Deniliquin, New South Wales, Australia
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aeckstein
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41700Post aeckstein
Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:30 pm

A couple of years back I did R. glauca x (Several different roses). I did hundreds of crosses literally. The majority failed. Most were definetly selfs. But about 30% to 20% or so showed morphology especially in the leaves and thorns that differened from R. glauca enough to call them hybrids. The ones that looked like pure glauca or close enough I weeded out. Out of these 20 seedlings only two survive now. Most of the rest had genetic issues that prevented them from growing well. The crosses I did was with some multifloras, woodsii, miniature roses and some floribundas. The two the survived just happen to be from hips that lost their tags (Ain't that always the way). I think one of them is probably from pollen of R. woodsii; because I done enough crosses with it that I can begin to see it charcteristic in all of its seedlings. The other I would say is from a miniature but I can not be certain if its dwarf size is from a miniature gene or from some genetic instability. I am still waiting for blooms; hopefully year three is the magic number.

This past summer I did a number of crosses using R. glauca as a pollen parent. I used it on several tetraploid miniatures, Tom Thumb, some rugosas and on R. foliolosa. Only the R. foliolosa set seed with the pollen. But I also did not make any where near as many crosses because I have only so much room for things that won't bloom for several years. And most of that room is being taken up by several other species crosses. I have high hopes for these seedlings. They just started to come up last week. Hopefully they are crosses. In the past I have tried selfing the form of R. foliolosa I have and it has not produced much if any seed so I am very hopeful.

Warren
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Re: Diploidy or not diploidy. That is the question...

Post: # 41701Post Warren
Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:49 pm

Hi Adam, looks like you done a fair bit of work there, you should see the results soon. Those species you have worked with I have not seen or worked with them yet to add any comment, but oneday I may.

I think a lot of species, especially the singles shed pollen when the flower is quite young, so the chance of selfing is quite high. I was doing some work with single rugosa's and it did not click why the crosses were not working out and all offspring looked like mum. A few years ago while pollinating a rugosa whose petals were still fused together, I started to cut the anthers off for pollination and Lo and behold pollen was being shed in large quantities. Now when I cut the anthers I tip the bloom to one side so they fall away from the stigma's and be a lot more gentle.
Deniliquin, New South Wales, Australia
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