When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

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Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by mntlover » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:49 pm

thanks for the info. and especially the article!
Duane

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by david zlesak » Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:05 am

Hi Duane!

Most all of the Above and Beyond seedlings do not have juvenile bloom. Some once mature are more freer flowering. A&B is a cross of a mini and a species hybrid (R. virginiana x R. laxa). So, we can guess it has rrRR (R is one time bloom, r repeat) for the primary gene that generally governs repeat bloom. I think there is preferential pairing in A&B for the chromosome that houses this gene. The RR chromosomes generally seem to pair and the rr seem to pair, so most all of the gametes will then receive one copy of each pair for Rr and crossed with a typical repeat flowering rose gives us Rrrr. These should with more rrrr parents produce a good number of typical repeaters. There are of course other genes and factors regulating repeat bloom, as mentioned with rugosas having extended juvenility before they bloom strong.

Here is a nice article by Dr. Roger Mitchell from a few years back documenting reflowering in his species hybrids. http://www.globalsciencebooks.info/Onli ... 46-52o.pdf

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by mntlover » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:12 pm

That brings up a question I have had in mind:
Will only the ones that bloom the first year be repeat bloomers?
I know that in Rugosas even those that are not juvenile bloomers could be repeat bloomers, although not necessarily.

Also, does that go for other cold hardy plants, like Candadian roses?

If one does not bloom the first year is it guaranteed to be a once a year bloomer?
What is the likelihood of gaining repeat bloom in the next generation if you cross that one with a repeat bloomer?
Has anyone been attempting that who can share their experience: does experience bear out the numbers expected?

I have two seedlings I kept that did not bloom last season I expect are from William Baffin pollen. If not repeating I was hoping to regain by crossing again. I don't want to waiste my time if that is not possible or at least somewhat likely.

Joe, I will see what the number of seedling from Above and Beyond end up. I crossed it both ways, although few crosses took on it. Fortunately, I have a decent number of seeds from the opposite cross on several plants, and they are just beginning to germinate. The fun begins!!!

Thanks!
Duane

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by jbergeson » Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:05 pm

Duane,

I think Above & Beyond is one good path forward to combine yellow and hardy. Keep in mind it is not a reblooming rose and produces fewer than 1 in 6 reblooming seedlings when crossed with rebloomers. Therefore you have to grow larger quantities of seedlings from these crosses and cull to keep only those that bloom the first year.

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by mntlover » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:27 pm

Thanks Rob: not encouraging to hear about blackspot with Rugelda. I was using it to try to add vigor and health.
I had wanted cold hardiness, since it was a Rugosa, before I knew it wasn't that hardy. (THinking about Agnes, if I want to work hard with one.)
This was a cross Rugelda as seed parent with the only pollen I had at that moment (as I hadn't frozen any up till that time) which was The Squire, hence the Red and fully double, as well as fragrance. I think maybe the red on yellow increased the fragrance also. Fortunately I think I got the vigor I wanted from Rugelda, but we'll have to wait and see if it is enough.
Probably not going to get enough health from it though. This time I used Rambling Red, for more health along with cold hardiness. First seedling that germinated a bit ago is just now starting a bud on it, so seems strong growing, we'll see what the bloom is.

Thoughts for cold hardiness in the yellow department? Already seedlings I believe from pollen from Willliams Double Yellow. Certainly Spins seem a thorny option, but Rugosa seem no less in the thorn dept. WOrked a lot with Above and Beyond last season and several just germinated, from crosses in both directions, so we'll see how that goes. Otherwise I'll have to purchase some plants to move in that direction. Any recommendations???
Thanks!
Duane

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by Plazbo » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:41 pm

Rob Byrnes wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:09 am
Joe,

Do your AE seedlings that are in bud show any traits from AE such as narrow leaves or thorniness?
Ive not found narrow leaves to be particularly dominant from Ann Endt seedlings, including OP....very thorny though (although to be fair the only low thorn near it is Therese Bugnet which is super thorny in the lower half).

No juvenile bloom from Ann Endt but sample size is only around 120 seedlings and a lot of that is with rugosas sooo juvenile bloom was unlikely.

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by Rob Byrnes » Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:50 pm

Rugelda turned out to have little resistance to BS and defoliated so I did not move forward with the plans. Your fully double red sounds interesting Duane. Was that an Rugelda self seedling?

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by mntlover » Mon Jan 20, 2020 8:28 pm

Wondering what results were for juvenile bloom for Rugelda and Ann Endt. Any results???

I used Rugelda as seed parent. 27 seeds germinated.
2 plants had juvenile bloom. One of those died right after blooming. The other I still have. Waiting to see its second season. It bloomed two or three times first year. It is a gorgeous fully double red with strong fragrance. Not sure if it will be vigorous enough.

I kept two seedlings that had not bloomed yet because foliage was yellow, then gold, then bronze, then green. Separate thread where I asked about them as babies. They are both still growing, just beginning to leaf out for second season, so hopefully they will bloom this season.

Any thoughts as to what to do with these seedlings in the next step?
I did not realize that Rugelda wasn't that cold hardy when I purchased it, as it was on shelves with cold hardy plants and was a hybrid Rugosa. Need to check on help me find on my cell first.
THanks!
Duane

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by Rob Byrnes » Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:22 pm

I hope you have some hybrids among the lot. Pictures would be cool :-)

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by jbergeson » Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:20 pm

Rob,

The problem is that YBR can throw extremely thorny seedlings. The first blossom is light yellow, which doesn't bode well for hybridity. However, three out of three seedlings of this cross now are showing buds. If I were to start looking at the foliage, I could likely not discern whether my observations were more than just wishful thinking. If the remaining blossoms are single and pink that might be a good sign. Maybe I'll get you a picture.

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by Rob Byrnes » Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:09 am

Joe,

Do your AE seedlings that are in bud show any traits from AE such as narrow leaves or thorniness?

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by jbergeson » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:23 pm

I have the same question about Ann Endt, whether it might give juvenile bloom in the first generation. I have two Yellow Brick Road x Ann Endt seedlings that have buds, but my results with YBR in the past combined with my pollination methods make me strongly suspicious that they are self pollinations. I also have a YBR x Persian Yellow with a bud, which seems highly unlikely if it were actually a cross.

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by Rob Byrnes » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:02 pm

So I'm seeing 2nd generation reblooming Rugelda hybrids Henry. I will have to be patient. Maybe I could get 1st gen if pairing with a real bloom machine.

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by henry kuska » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:48 pm

Listed descendants of Yellow Alzbeta Kuska on Help-Me-Find:

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.p ... lstTyp=256

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by Rob Byrnes » Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:49 am

Thank you David. I hope so.

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by david zlesak » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:45 am

Caramella Fairy Tale is listed as a seedling of Rugelda. It does repeat, but maybe not as strongly as most recurrent roses in the garden. Hopefully there'll be some good exceptions for some repeaters for you Rob out of Rugelda.

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by Rob Byrnes » Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:20 pm

Tank you guys for your input. I guess I won't know until I try. I'm sorry to read that you had no recurrency Peter. Not very encouraging results.

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by Peter Harris » Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:34 pm

I grew Rugelda for several years, and never got recurrent bloom from it. Nor did any of its seedlings (from several crosses) show recurrence. One seedling that got hidden among more vigorous seedlings from other crosses bloomed for the first time 9 years after it was planted out. After that it bloomed dependably every spring until I felt brave enough to dive into that thicket of seedlings and dig it out.

Yellow Alzbeta Kuska (a cross between two non-recurrent lines) is predictably non-recurrent. It is also the most attractive first-generation seedling I've seen from Rugelda.

Peter

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by david zlesak » Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:56 am

That's a great point Paul about some of the other groups too. I've experienced delayed initial bloom with 'Robin Hood' seedlings as well.

Re: When to expect Rugelda F1 first blooms

by pgeurts » Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:32 am

Hi Rob,
It doesn’t look like many people have used Rugelda recently to give you an idea how well the first year seedlings bloom. I haven’t used it either so I can’t say for sure, but we can make an educated guess as to the possibilities.

Since we don’t know the full heritage of Rugelda we can only guess what it’ll pass on for repeat bloom until seedlings are grown. If Rugelda did get non-juvenile bloom from the Rugosa and only from the Rugosa then each of its seedlings would have a 50% chance of getting it from Rugelda. If Rugelda got non-juvenile bloom from more than one parent then it would pass that on at a higher percentage. It’s also possible that Rugelda didn’t get non-juvenile bloom from either Robusta or Bonanza and therefore would not pass that on to its seedlings. But like Peter says it’ll also depend on what you cross Rugelda with.

I also want to point out that non-juvenile bloom is not just associated with R.rugosa. I have grown quite a few Polyantha and Hybrid Musk seedlings. It is not uncommon for some of the seedlings to wait until the second year to bloom in particular the taller lankier ones. I have some “Oso Smoothie” x (Marie Pavie x Robin Hood) seedlings and all of the small ones bloomed the first year, whereas all of the taller ones waited until the second year. Morning Magic is classified as climber and the same thing could be going on there as well.

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